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Ed Glinert's east end book big revelation?

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  • #16
    from wiki

    Is this true this was started by Knight and the figure was originally 200 cubits, not 2,000?
    In 1979 Stephen Knight published a book called "Jack the Ripper: The Final Solution". In it he suggests that there was plot by Freemasons to kill prostitutes within "200 cubits" of Wellclose Square. The evidence was quickly and thoroughly demolished by historians, and on his deathbed, Stephen Knight admitted he had been wrong.

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    • #17
      [QUOTE=The Good Michael;145060]Krinold,

      The biggest issue is that the biblical cubit is typically based on the Babylonian cubit as that is where the Hebrews stole much of their mythology, and the English cubit is a different measurement. 2000 Babylonian cubits isn't close to the same as 2000 English cubits.

      Myth.... BUSTED
      Maybe not "busted" as you so eloquently put and quick to jump on as the
      exact unit is as quoted on the web for the cubit we are talking about is"
      Sabbath Day's Journey 1,000 yards 914.4 m; 2,000 cubits;
      3,000 feet"

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      • #18
        http://www.stgite.org.uk/stsaviourwellclose.html

        [ And that Hawksmoor positioned all his churches in these measurements to significant sites especially Wellclose Square which was the apex of the whole scheme which also had a Danish church with involvement from Hawksmoor. He then later says this church was still known to the locals as "st savior's church" and would have been known to prince Eddy as it was danish and researchers did not look into this in JTR the final solution era. He said there was a chapel in the school there that marriages took place.The choice of a chapel on W.S. the place created according to biblical instruction and masonic lore would have approval from masons.[/QUOTE]
        The St savior name mentioned above is true!

        In the following year they rented the former DANISH CHURCH in Wellclose Square, which had been used by seafarers' missions but had lain empty for several years. It was named St Saviour and St Cross, an unusual dedication in England (though S. Croix and Santa Croce are common enough elsewhere in Europe). This reflected two new associations:

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        • #19
          This could almost be a Dan brown novel in the making.

          In all seriousness, I don't get what you are trying to explain here? Churches, freemasons, 'esoteric', apex, horses head... what exactly are you trying to explain?
          if mickey's a mouse, and pluto's a dog, whats goofy?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by joelhall View Post
            This could almost be a Dan brown novel in the making.

            In all seriousness, I don't get what you are trying to explain here? Churches, freemasons, 'esoteric', apex, horses head... what exactly are you trying to explain?
            The horse's head I thought was very funny when I read that as that I was an item I found on the web and posted..
            I was basically trying to ask the experts on here if they had read Glinert's book and could explain his theories as I thought he made a breakthrough especially on the importance of Wellclose square-I thought the Ripperologists were on here but they are ignoring my postings or just dismissing them without facts, so we will never know. W.S. no matter how you look at it has some significance to the early planners of London (Wren),many mystics (falk etc) lived there, The Ratcliffe hghwy murders (both of them) were literally across the street from the Square and Swedenborg squares(which adjoins it),both squares had signifacant churches next to each other and they were all next to another Hawksmoor church St george in the East.
            Then Glinert stated those measurements and a lot made sense to me on why those Murder sites were chosen and no one never heard anything or saw anything at the time of those murders??I think some of them were placed there for a reason IMHO,but we will never know.
            I almost get the idea there is a kind of snobbery on here that even if I am completely wrong, people are not open to new ideas and theories.
            Last edited by Krinoid; 08-25-2010, 08:40 PM. Reason: typos

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            • #21
              I think, with respect, Krinoid, that the issue is not the novelty of the idea, but the fact that the 'facts' that you want to use to justify the discussion aren't actually facts. In other words, the measurements just don't match, unless you're prepared to be very imprecise about it (which, surely, defeats the purpose?).
              Of course, Wellclose-square is a fascinating place (or was; it's not terribly exciting now, but that's 'progress' for you), and it's always bloody tempting to try and link interesting places with interesting events (Peter Ackroyd's made a career of it). However, if you want to link Wellclose-square with any of the 1888 murders, you'll need to look at something other than measurements, I suspect.
              best,

              claire

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Krinoid View Post
                The horse's head I thought was very funny when I read that as that I was an item I found on the web and posted..
                I was basically trying to ask the experts on here if they had read Glinert's book and could explain his theories as I thought he made a breakthrough especially on the importance of Wellclose square-I thought the Ripperologists were on here but they are ignoring my postings or just dismissing them without facts, so we will never know. W.S. no matter how you look at it has some significance to the early planners of London (Wren),many mystics (falk etc) lived there, The Ratcliffe hghwy murders (both of them) were literally across the street from the Square and Swedenborg squares(which adjoins it),both squares had signifacant churches next to each other and they were all next to another Hawksmoor church St george in the East.
                Then Glinert stated those measurements and a lot made sense to me on why those Murder sites were chosen and no one never heard anything or saw anything at the time of those murders??I think some of them were placed there for a reason IMHO,but we will never know.
                I almost get the idea there is a kind of snobbery on here that even if I am completely wrong, people are not open to new ideas and theories.
                Well I can tell you about the London planning in this instance, with regards to Wren. He redesigned the area with St. Pauls in the cntre and the rest spreading out to make an easy to navigate geometric shape. He was very artistic and this was simply for design function and artistic merit. There was no conspiracy, but the past allows people to rad more into things and even dream up fascinating stories.

                With regard to churches and other significant buildings - if you ever visit London you will no this isn't perculiar to that area. London is full of nooks and crannies and all manner of old and important buildings in small areas. Bloomsbury is almost like the Bermuda Triangle

                The reason so many similar buildings were in particular places was to do with the population, especially immigrants. They would tend to stick together in the same places for solidarity, and build their own communities within communities, much the same as today. Also the sheer amount of people in a small space called for more buildings. London, especially the East End was particularly densely populated, and there are only so many people you can fit into a church.

                Churches didn't have the same purposes as they do today. They were not simply for singing hymns and hearing a service, but were outlets for community announcements, social events - they were the hub of the town (as well as the pubs for gossip - some things never change). Cities began to be planned around the needs of people, rather than just finding decent land and placing a building there. Land was scarse and had to be used efficiently and had to have a prominent position for easy navigation for people. Not many Eastenders would bother to walk all the way from Walthamstow to Clapham simply for church. They'd prefer to have their own or set up some other means of meeting which would prove havoc for the church authorities who were charged with not just religion, but public, social and at times, legal affairs of their parishes, as well as record keeping, etc.

                Anyway, I can vouch there is the bit of snobbery and such, but that's bound to happen and it's nothing personal - you get it in all walks of life, and it's often because those with more knowledge have seen these sorts of things again and again and again, and are really just tired of debunking them. Now and then it might be because people end up assuming themselves right and everyone else wrong. Even so, it's nothing that's inherent in the members of this site, even the more knowledgeable ones.

                One of the things to remember with conspiracy theories is they are usually only that - simply theories with no basis. For instance picking murder sites to make shapes on a map - what is the point? If it's some mystical thing no one got it or really cared for anything other than people being ripped up; if it's to send out a warning no one understood it, and certainly there was no panicky upheaval; if it was something sacred then it really was a momumental waste of time.

                And of course these things are based on the FLIMSIEST of evidence. These include the sites making shapes, the initials of the victims, someone once walked past someone elses second cousin twice removed, something to do with the moon...

                Besides it's a lot of trouble to go to simply to kill a few, at the time, unknown, virtually nameless prostitutes from the East End.

                The golden rule here is to think about what you read. It makes it a good story, it plays into the atmosphere and general feeling of mystery and intrigue of the times - but in all honesty is it really that likely?

                For instance the Royal conspiracy - is it really that likely? Would freemasons go around killing people in ritualistic killings in public places leaving clues behind to protect a Royal prince? Or if the very fabric of the British government was really at stake, would they not simply have arrested them as spies or made them disappear (sometimes the powers that be do do this)? To be honest I wouldn't think they'd want to draw attention to themselves, much less even care if these people spoke. Or better yet they could just say 'prove it' to any claims made, which they know would be impossible.

                Of course if you think a theory is viable then by all means explore it, then cite the evidence for analysis by others. If it's merely circumstantial and does not tie in with logic, then abandon it.
                if mickey's a mouse, and pluto's a dog, whats goofy?

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                • #23
                  the Last two replies were very good-more feedback and ideas please..

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                  • #24
                    In the last two replies, Claire and Joel have simply said, perhaps more politely than some of us, that the "solution" put forward by Glinert was either a joke or a load of old cobblers. If you believe differently, Krinoid, the onus is on you to prove it.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by The Grave Maurice View Post
                      In the last two replies, Claire and Joel have simply said, perhaps more politely than some of us, that the "solution" put forward by Glinert was either a joke or a load of old cobblers. If you believe differently, Krinoid, the onus is on you to prove it.
                      Oh I didn't know this was a challenge for a duel!, I thought this was a discussion forum where people discuss theories and add some constructive comments instead of just ridicule members like you are doing. There is such a tendancy on this site to prove how above some members are on others due to their superior knowledge. Well, I was compared to Peter Ackroyd above, not bad.Considered highly intellectual along with Iain sinclair who has proposed similiar theories.I guess they are stupid also and below the contempt of "premium "members. As far as I know "ripperologists" is not a learned degree, so therefore I would side with Historians like Glinert,ackroyd , sinclair and others.

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                      • #26
                        BTW I was not trying to ever justify the facts in Glinert's book as I don't know enough to test them or backgroud info, that is why I posted here to see if others ( the so called experts) had and what their ideas were,not just blatant dismissal with no comments. And I wanted to alert people to the book, tried that 2 years ago. People are acting like these are my theories, they are not, Glinert says in another book "London's Dead" that many "ripperologists" believe what I posted on various theories.
                        And if there is not enough evidence yet fine ,but as they say there's no smoke without fire and someone will deduce it eventually...and it won't probabbly on this site LOL
                        end of postings

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Krinoid View Post
                          And if there is not enough evidence yet fine ,but as they say there's no smoke without fire
                          They are often wrong about smoke and fire. Sometimes the smoke is imagined and then fire is conjured from that imagining. It is the way of conspiracy theories quite often, and it happens on this site, like as not.

                          Mike
                          huh?

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                          • #28
                            Krinoid,

                            I did not ridicule you. I asked you only to show me why I should take Glinert's "solution" seriously since that, in my opinion, is more than he did.

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                            • #29
                              If we are only allowed to discuss on this forum pure "facts"that can be verified,then we might as well shut down the forum. Even the so called descriptions of witness testimony from people who saw what they thought was the ripper (for example) vary in every detail not to mention police records, are non consistent.So they should not be discussed?? I mean they can't even prove all the crimes were the same killer by method.

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                              • #30
                                Hi Krinoid,

                                It may interest you to know that someone has drawn the lines between the murder sites, etc, to which you have referred in this thread. The image can be seen in "the other place", by following this link:

                                click here

                                The creator and copyright holder of the overlay image, Colin Roberts, does not post on this site at the moment.

                                I hope you find this interesting.

                                Regards,

                                Mark

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