Jacks Day Job?

[Fisherman]

Sam writes:

"I would have thought it would be a well dressed man, well spoken and someone who they trusted or even maybe had been with before rather than someone who looked dodgy, a scruffy foreigner or drunk guy".

To begin with, I bid you welcome to the boards, Sam!

That notion of yours, that a well-clad man would be someone the unfortunates may have regarded as more trustworthy may seem a logical one on the surface of it all.
But keep in mind that there were a lot of rumours going around involving doctors and such - well-clad men with a respectable/wealthy appearance. Such men would have stood out like sore thumbs on Dorset Street and Mitre Square, and they would surely have rung warning bells amongst the prostitutes.
I think that what we should be looking for is someone inbetween monsters and gentlemen, the type of man that would NOT stand out, in other words the typical low class labourer, clad in worn clothes, the everyday bloke who would melt in without even being noticed.

All the best, Sam!
Fisherman

[DVV]

A point I have made numerous times, and that once again fills itīs place, is the fact that any skilled butcher would have known how to decapitate! And we have the medicos words that decapitation was tried - and failed! - in the cases of Kelly and Chapman. The bone in the neck was notched in both cases.
Fisherman

Hello Fisherman,
in fact, not only Chapman and Kelly, but also Nichols and Eddowes had the throat cut through the vertebrae.
That was not the case with Stride, and then it's a valid argument for those, like you, who do not see her as a JtR victim.
But (that's just my opinion) I don't think Jack has ever tried to behead his victims.
If he had this desire, why didn't he come with the proper instrument to do so after his supposed failure in Nichols case, then Chapman's, then Eddowes...
Not to talk of Miller's court, where he had time enough to mutilate the victim so extensively.
I understand why the medicos made this suggestion, but I think safe to say: "It looks like he tried to behead", instead of "he tried to behead and fail".
One French serial killer called Jacques Plumain slaughtered one of his victim to the spine too, but had no fantasy of decapitation. The fact merely indicates a great savagery, and some physical strenght.
This said, I agree with you and don't believe in Jack-the-Butcher neither.

Amitiés,
David

[Fisherman]

Nemesis Legion asks:

"I wonder if he was really trying to decapitate or did he just cut a bit too deep?"

Well, Nemesis, the notion that he actually did try to decapitate is not m ine, but the medicoīs . Phillips was pretty sure of it, since there was apparently numerous notches bearing witness of the whole thing, not just the one. And the notches were in all probability too deep to be passed off as mishaps when cutting the neck, otherwise Phillips would not have reached the conclusion. I would say that it is a generally accepted thing.

The best!
Fisherman

[sam]

Hello, this is my first post so be gentle!

I would think that the women who continued to work the streets after the first couple of murders took place who then knew that there was a maniac on the prowl would be a little bit selective with who they went with, wouldnt you? I would have thought it would be a well dressed man, well spoken and someone who they trusted or even maybe had been with before rather than someone who looked dodgy, a scruffy foreigner or drunk guy. I doubt as well that they would have gone with someone carrying a bag or parcel (that maybe contained sharp implements), surely they wouldnt be that silly.

I also think that if he was caught whilst in the middle of one of these murders by a policemen etc.. he would have lashed out and had a go rather than give himself up quietly. I also think that he must have been a strong, well built man otherwise one or more of the victims would have kicked him in the ghoulies whilst he was trying to strangle them and escape or put up more of a struggle than they did.

I recently watched a JTR documentary on Sky TV with Vic Reeves as the presenter, the letter he had analysed with Tumblety's handwriting on it looks very similar to the handwriting on the 'From Hell' letter that is on this website. Also my last thought... George Chapman owned a Barbers Shop, if there were Two murderers after all I reckon he was involved as he could have easily got talking to a customer, maybe someone smart looking and a regular in his shop.

Sam

[Elias]

I think he worked in I.T.

[Nemesis Legion]

We of course would be revolted to attempt anything like this, but jtr was likely to be mentally ill. He could do it, and was strongly motivated to want to do it.

Coming back to evisceration, he went in from the front, otherwise to locate the bladder and uteri from the back, would be difficult as he would have to navigate around the backbone. He knew this.

To avoid rolling the messy body face down, he simply went for the kidneys from the front too. It seems difficult, but doing it the other way was actually more difficult.

I dont believe he had anatomical skill.

He had of course seen many pig and sheep carcasses hanging up in shops and markets. He may even have watched as the animals were processed, and therefore had a useful knowledge of where the various organs were to be found.

You do make a sound case, but then again too many questions remain ... I wonder if anyone can solve this case seeing as there are so many side to every aspect ... oh well the case continues and the game is still a foot

[Ashkenaz]

And to make something clear about the theory of “Jack” seeing butchers slaughter animals and then learning a thing of two from it (I saw this in a few earlier posts). There is a BIG difference from watching (or working with) a skilled professional and doing some of those acts yourself. It’s the same as seeing a Dare Devil use his motorbike to jump over 20 school buses and then thinking your going to give it a go next. No these murders seem to be done by someone who knows his (or HER?!?) way around body with a knife.

We of course would be revolted to attempt anything like this, but jtr was likely to be mentally ill. He could do it, and was strongly motivated to want to do it.

Coming back to evisceration, he went in from the front, otherwise to locate the bladder and uteri from the back, would be difficult as he would have to navigate around the backbone. He knew this.

To avoid rolling the messy body face down, he simply went for the kidneys from the front too. It seems difficult, but doing it the other way was actually more difficult.

I dont believe he had anatomical skill.

He had of course seen many pig and sheep carcasses hanging up in shops and markets. He may even have watched as the animals were processed, and therefore had a useful knowledge of where the various organs were to be found.

[Ashkenaz]

A point I have made numerous times, and that once again fills itīs place, is the fact that any skilled butcher would have known how to decapitate! And we have the medicos words that decapitation was tried - and failed! - in the cases of Kelly and Chapman. The bone in the neck was notched in both cases.
So no, I do not for a minute think that we are dealing with a trained butcher here! Such am man, described as he has been on this thread as a man who confidently cut get the job done with a blindfold on - would such a man come up with jagged, tentative wounds and stabs like those on the lower abdomen of Nichols? I donīt think so.

The best!
Fisherman

I agree with you Fisherman, I dont think jtr was a skilled butcher.

Serial killers often have a history of child abuse, as well as mental illness and often head injury to the frontal area. These unfortunate circumstances prevent them achieving their full potential. Its not likely he ever completed an apprenticeship of this type.

The working classes knew only too well what liver, kidneys and other things of this type looked like. Its what they got to eat on paydays. jtr would have recognised these things with out anatomical knowledge.

I dont see any other reason for the positioning of the bowels over Eddowes shoulder other than he was getting them out of the way, so that he could locate visera of interest to him.

[Ashkenaz]

Hi Ashkenaz,They only had limited space, and even allowing for auxilliary staff (fetchers and carriers), I doubt that the market employed anywhere near the same amount of people as local building works and docks. A very quick search of the 1881 Census shows that there were far more labourers (roughly 300), dockers (c. 60) and dock-labourers (c. 58) living in Spitalfields than there were market porters (14) or "porters" in general (130) - not all of whom would have been employed at Spitalfields Market itself.

Thanks Sam and everyone, I believe that jtr was a working class guy who lived in the area.

[Nemesis Legion]

A point I have made numerous times, and that once again fills itīs place, is the fact that any skilled butcher would have known how to decapitate! And we have the medicos words that decapitation was tried - and failed! - in the cases of Kelly and Chapman. The bone in the neck was notched in both cases.
So no, I do not for a minute think that we are dealing with a trained butcher here! Such am man, described as he has been on this thread as a man who confidently cut get the job done with a blindfold on - would such a man come up with jagged, tentative wounds and stabs like those on the lower abdomen of Nichols? I donīt think so.

The best!
Fisherman

You make a great counter point to my point (about him being skilled with a knife), and to that I say - That he must have been consumed with rage and passion to carry out his work like that. His sloppiness of work like that goes against his skillfulness of doing things like taking out whole organs in one piece and kidneys from the front of the body. I'd lean more to a skilled knife user who gets sloppy when excited over a sloppy knife user who gets skilled when he concentrates. But, that bit about trying to decapitate and failing ... I wonder if he was really trying to decapitate or did he just cut a bit too deep?

And to make something clear about the theory of “Jack” seeing butchers slaughter animals and then learning a thing of two from it (I saw this in a few earlier posts). There is a BIG difference from watching (or working with) a skilled professional and doing some of those acts yourself. It’s the same as seeing a Dare Devil use his motorbike to jump over 20 school buses and then thinking your going to give it a go next. No these murders seem to be done by someone who knows his (or HER?!?) way around body with a knife.

-

Hi Ashkenaz,They only had limited space, and even allowing for auxilliary staff (fetchers and carriers), I doubt that the market employed anywhere near the same amount of people as local building works and docks. A very quick search of the 1881 Census shows that there were far more labourers (roughly 300), dockers (c. 60) and dock-labourers (c. 58) living in Spitalfields than there were market porters (14) or "porters" in general (130) - not all of whom would have been employed at Spitalfields Market itself.

300 Dockworkers vs 14 porters … BUT … it just takes one to be Jack the Ripper! I know your saying statically wise he must have been from the bigger group, but there is no real way of knowing that out side of a generalization of the people in the area. Then again Dockworker fits in with the Sailor and sunburn description

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ashkenaz,

The biggest employment in the area I think was Spitalfields fruit and vegetable market.

They only had limited space, and even allowing for auxilliary staff (fetchers and carriers), I doubt that the market employed anywhere near the same amount of people as local building works and docks. A very quick search of the 1881 Census shows that there were far more labourers (roughly 300), dockers (c. 60) and dock-labourers (c. 58) living in Spitalfields than there were market porters (14) or "porters" in general (130) - not all of whom would have been employed at Spitalfields Market itself.

[Fisherman]

A point I have made numerous times, and that once again fills itīs place, is the fact that any skilled butcher would have known how to decapitate! And we have the medicos words that decapitation was tried - and failed! - in the cases of Kelly and Chapman. The bone in the neck was notched in both cases.
So no, I do not for a minute think that we are dealing with a trained butcher here! Such am man, described as he has been on this thread as a man who confidently cut get the job done with a blindfold on - would such a man come up with jagged, tentative wounds and stabs like those on the lower abdomen of Nichols? I donīt think so.

The best!
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hello Ashkenaz

We may, or may not, have a clue with the fact that Jack picked up Annie Chapman just around the corner from Spitalfields Market after 05.00 am.

It is also worth noting that if Caroline Maxwell was correct, she saw kelly on the morning of Nov 9th, talking to someone outside the Britannia who she described as a market porter.

[Ashkenaz]

The profilers tell us that jtr was a local man.

The biggest employment in the area I think was Spitalfields fruit and vegetable market. He may have been a barrow boy, or labourer there, or shop worker. Several slaughter houses as you say are in the area, so he may have worked in a slaughter house. To the South I think is dockland, and its not too far. Perhaps a docker or sailor.

Not sure how far away Billingsgate Fish Market was, but Joseph Barnet was a fish porter there.

Then again there are all the shops on Comercial road, and vicinity,so he may have been a shop worker of any type.

If we go with what the profilers say, then it follows that he probably did one of these lowly manual jobs. It was not a place where the well to do lived. At best he was working class.

There were slaughter-houses and knackers' yards in the East End, Mike. No need to go out of town for that.

Thats true enough Sam,....however if we are talking about a man observing that kind of trade, while not employed in it, he would be very suspicious as time went on after August. It would seem Jack drew no attention from anyone, while the rampage was on anyway.

Also there are the lapses. Being out of town for a few weeks a month, in the the middle of them,....maybe I should amend my thoughts to include shipworkers of all kinds, as well as dockworkers.

I like dockers for a simple reason,... data you showed me that suggested by far the most predominant sector of working males that frequented prostitutes at that time, based on disease treaments sought and information being obtained at that time, were dockers.

The more there are seeking women, the easier to hide among them I figure.

All the best Sam.