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  • JTR's profession

    The killer killed on the end of the month and the 8th,Aug.31,Sept.8,Sept 30,Nov.8 -9,despite "unfortunates" available more or less everyday.
    He was a visitor with a fixed schedule.
    From Goulston street after dropping the apron where was the killer going, Middelsex/wentworth to the left,Bell lane/Crispin across or
    Wentworth/Commercial St. to the right,it was between 2:20 AM-2:50 AM (Long's discovery and PC Long's first pass).Practically right off the bat,
    he was going to Bell Lane,to Crispin then to the market,where there were lots of his "kind",visitors with fixed schedules.At 2-3-4 Am people begun
    setting things up and the market was opening.There were no gates and sellers could come in at anytime,along with higglers,buyers,porters,
    costermongers,flower sellers and the German/French fruit salesmen from commission houses or farmers/producers.


    February 1888 Commission on Market and Tolls.

    - Robert Horner: leasee of Spitalfields Market,since 12 years

    (Sir Thomas Martineau)

    Have you auctions in the market now? Not any.

    You are going to use your proposed flower market as an auction room are you not? As an auction room and flower market.

    And you either have established or propose to create a flower market? Yes,it will be ready by 1st of March,it is now nearly completed.

    So you think that a want is felt for sales by auction? I think so; they seem to be wanting to come there to sell,because they show
    samples.The great bulk of the samples of fruit,and so on,come up by the Great Eastern via Harwich from Germany and France,and they
    can bring them into Spitalfields and show the samples,and there sell them...The auction is principally of foreign consignments.

    There are three market days ...There is a market everyday but the growers come in three days. *(Tues,Thurs,Sat)

    The greengrocers come there in the morning in the summer season at 3 or 4 o'clock,and they,some of them,stop for 2 or 3 hours there buying their goods.

    Any vegetables that are left at the end of the day are...bought more by higglers and men that stand hanging about;they are not quite costermomgers but
    men who hang about the market and buy...puts it in the ground and sells it in the after part of the day and the next day.

    ..the costermongers are very useful people in clearing the market...: I have endeavoured to make roads through Spitalfields market,which there
    were not before,so that a costermonger,at a given time in the morning,can bring his barrow into the market and load from a grower's
    van,and so,save 1s or 1s 6d porterage....the costermonger can bring his vehicle to the market at 8 o'clock in the morning..."

    The stall keepers get so mamy things stolen at night.There are four small streets belonging to the local authority,and what I have applied for
    was to have gates to shut the market up at night,and they refused.


    - Mr James Briggs: solicitor on behalf of Mr. Horner.

    ..the market gardeners attend the market as regular as ever they did.The salesmen deal more in the large fruit and potato business.

    As regards foreign supplies,and supplies from a long distance,that is so.There necessarily must be salesmen in those cases.


    - Mr. John Denton: costermonger,chiefly,Spitalfields Market

    In Spitalfields we can buy cheaper than we can at other places....more people go there...more growers come there.


    - Mr James Allen: farmer Dartford,Kent.

    We sometime have something like 20 horses a day.


    And you have standing rooms for waggons;have you any stall provided? Yes,we have room to pitch the fruit and those sort of
    things,as well as standing room for the waggons.

    Have you any office? No...we have a desk.

    Would it be an advantage to you to have a sale by auction in the afternoon? I do not think so.I like to sell my things and go home.


    - Thomas Matthews,market gardener:

    I send 12 waggons a week.

    Formerly we were obliged to be there in the summer as early as two or three o'clock in the morning; the market used to begin at three
    o'clock...Now you can get in at any time,and the buyer can bring his carts and unload the goods off the seller's waggons into his cart.



    ================================================== =================


    Regarding Robert Horner's statement above "The great bulk of the samples of fruit,and so on,come up by the Great Eastern via Harwich from
    Germany and France..' the routes from France sort of did not make sense.
    * He had 20,000 tons of potatoes,2000 sold to America,the rest to anybody including Spitalfield Market buyers but had lots of competition.


    Harwich (Parkeston Quay) to London 6x daily 5:00 am (for steamers arriving from Rotterdam and Antwerp) 7:55 am 9:58 am 1:00 pm
    3:10 pm 5:40 pm


    - From Germany 3 routes to Harwich then to London:

    Rotterdam to Harwich to London, daily except Sunday, depart 6:15 pm to 5:00 am arrive 6:50 am - 12 hrs 35 min

    Antwerp to Harwich to London daily except Sunday depart 5:45 pm to 5:00 am arrive 6:50 am - 13 hrs 5 min

    Hamburg To Harwich (steamers), Harwich to London, 3x a week depart 10:45 pm - Tue/Wed/Sat - 27 hrs 50 min
    (this route from Altes Land near Hamburg)

    - From France it did not go to Harwich,Great Eastern did not pass Dover,Littlehampton,Newhaven,Folksetone which were/are across/destinations
    on England from France - Calais,Honfleur/Caen,Dieppe,Boulogne/Calais respectively. (French ports,route for Calvados/Nornmandy).There was also a St. Malo to Channel Islands to London route.
    But still probably end in Liverpool Street station London and carted to Spitlafields market 4/few blocks away.



    Sources:

    Bradshaw COntinental Guide, September 1888

    https://archive.org/details/Bradshaw...er1888/page/n1

    1885 Charles Gillig's London Guide

    Harwich (Parkeston Quay) to Rotterdam or Antwerp

    https://books.google.com/books?id=QJ...MYZexO&sig=E1N
    HCqG-GliSYUQgweIkCVUW96s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi5sqGmkr PfAhVLja0KHft_CIs4FBDoATAGegQIAhAB#v=onepage&q=par keston%20quay%20harwich%20to%20rot
    terdam%2C&f=false


    1892 London to Harwich.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=ou...DVFXaIqwy2OWle
    A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSwfGc57TfAhUO1qwKHZskD_UQ 6AEwA3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=london%20to%20harwich%2 0at%208%20pm&f=false


    calais to Dover , Boulougne to Folksetone.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=sN...illig%27s+new+
    guide+to+London&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjJ-MDXlrPfAhUEaq0KHYYqCnsQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=parkes ton&f=false


    Dieppe to Newhaven.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_o...CR_ferries.jpg



    -----
    Last edited by Varqm; 01-12-2019, 11:20 AM.
    Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
    M. Pacana

  • #2
    -More about fruit auctions.


    -source: https://books.google.com/books/about...d=JzdHAQAAMAAJ

    The Marketing of Farm Products
    By Louis Dwight Harvell Weld 1915


    The principal value of sale by auction is that this method results in the primary distribution of huge quantities of perishables into their
    respective trade channels in the shortest possible time.


    -The German/French salesmen/representatives Briggs/Horner alluded to.

    Goods are not usually consigned direct by distant shippers to the auction companies themselves, but rather to shippers' representatives
    ... or to wholesale receivers or commission men, who turn them over to the auction companies.
    Some of the companies nominally allow shippers to consign their goods direct, but this practice is discouraged, and most of the eastern
    companies refuse to handle goods except through a local dealer or representative. They give as reasons first, that they want the shippers
    to have representatives on hand who can vouch for the faithful performance of duties on the part of the auction company...

    How Auction Companies Operate. — Auction sales are usually held on some pier or in a railroad freight shed where the commodities
    reach the city in large volume. When the goods arrive (in boatloads or carloads), they are first separated into lots, varying
    from three or four to ten or fifteen boxes (of oranges, say) in a lot, each lot containing oranges of the same quality and size.
    Each lot is numbered, and a catalog is printed, showing the number of each lot, the number of boxes, etc., and these catalogs
    are given to the buyers.
    A certain number of boxes in each lot is opened to serve as samples, and before the auction sale begins,the buyers inspect the samples,
    and mark down in their catalogs the various lots that they desire to purchase..


    The commission vary...the usual range is 2 to 5 percent.


    ** Only image I found on fruit auction,1901,Covent garden,bigger and more high-end than Spitalfields market.

    https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-fr...-98164876.html

    ** Spitalfields Flower Market/Auction house,9th picture:

    http://spitalfieldslife.com/2010/09/...etable-market/



    ================================================== ========================================


    -- The auction times,it seems,was middle/late morning,between 9:30 AM and 12:30 AM in the USA,1907.At the Fruit/Wool exchange in 1937,across
    Spitalfields Market,it was 10:30 AM.The auction for a particular company is held a day or two and they then have to resupply/reload.

    Fruit auction/auctioners page 136 - 137 although in US/1907, should be similar.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=hD...s=G2oJbgv2X_&s
    ig=sOR4eQaBibGALkTvZGssmpWKz6k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahU KEwj1rIaAgMvfAhUJgK0KHXDZCH84ChDoATADegQIBRAB#v=on epage&q=%20auction%20&f=false

    Fruit auction/auctioners,last image of article

    http://spitalfieldslife.com/2012/05/...-exchange-1937

    --If the fruits from Germany/France were not already warehoused,after waiting for the steamers arriving at 5 AM,the Express train from
    Harwich arrived at Liverpool Street Station at 6:50 Am.,where,possibly,the fruits are then checked/accepted and handed over to Spitalfields
    representatives.These German/French salesmen had time between 12 AM and 6:50 AM before the auctions begun.


    **Steamers from Hamburg,or Antwerp and Rotterdam which connected to Cologne then to Hamburg or Berlin.


    ================================================== =========================================


    A bit about the Hamburg fruit trade and the use of commission houses,also of Havre.And a bit about fruit trade in Germany,France,U.K.,etc. and US.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Gp...e%20of&f=false



    -----
    Last edited by Varqm; 01-12-2019, 11:31 AM.
    Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
    M. Pacana

    Comment


    • #3
      not 3x but 2x weekly :
      London to Harwich to Hamburg,2x a week - Wed/Sat leaves Liverpool ST. station at 8 PM,Harwich at 10:00 pm - 27 hrs 50 min
      Return from Hamburg Wed/Sat evening.

      On this one direct from London (St. Katharines wharf,Ironsgate) to Hamburg,same company as Harwich to Hamburg:
      Leaves London,Sept 1,6,8,13,15,20,22.
      From Hamburg Sept.,3,6,10,13,17,20,24,27


      https://archive.org/details/Bradshaw...1888/page/n617



      -----
      Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
      M. Pacana

      Comment


      • #4
        Are you suggesting that the murders were committed using a viciously sharp slice of mango?

        Comment


        • #5
          Jack the Ripper was a Fruiterer.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Varqm View Post
            The killer killed on the end of the month and the 8th,Aug.31,Sept.8,Sept 30,Nov.8 -9,despite "unfortunates" available more or less everyday.
            He was a visitor with a fixed schedule.
            From Goulston street after dropping the apron where was the killer going, Middelsex/wentworth to the left,Bell lane/Crispin across or
            Wentworth/Commercial St. to the right,it was between 2:20 AM-2:50 AM (Long's discovery and PC Long's first pass).Practically right off the bat,
            he was going to Bell Lane,to Crispin then to the market,where there were lots of his "kind",visitors with fixed schedules.At 2-3-4 Am people begun
            setting things up and the market was opening.There were no gates and sellers could come in at anytime,along with higglers,buyers,porters,
            costermongers,flower sellers and the German/French fruit salesmen from commission houses or farmers/producers.
            Are you stating that the market was only open one week a month, or that this particular individual only sold at this (continuously open) market one week a month?

            If it is the former than that is interesting, if it is the latter not so much.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi Scott,

              It was the juice what done it.

              Regards,

              Simon

              Comment


              • #8
                Jack The Pipper.

                My sincerest apologies to all for that one
                Regards

                Herlock






                "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

                Comment


                • #9
                  The Ripper was certainly someone who absolutely knew his killing zone and how to get out before getting caught. He knew how to dodge Joe Public getting up for work, who could be a potential witness and I think he had a pretty good idea of police beats and could have had an almost a cast-iron excuse or alibi to be told to move on if stopped by a member of London's finest. He quite possibly did have a job in a market or even a Railway station- somewhere, where the Killer could blend in with the crowds and not be remotely suspicious. There may even be a possibility that Jack worked outwith the London area, only coming back into Whitechapel on certain Weekends and Bank Holidays.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Depending on variety/climate,August-November were/are harvesting months for,most likely apples and pears,and possibly part of the bulk of fruits that brought these tradesmen to the market to sell/auction.


                    ----
                    Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
                    M. Pacana

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by APerno View Post
                      Are you stating that the market was only open one week a month, or that this particular individual only sold at this (continuously open) market one week a month?

                      If it is the former than that is interesting, if it is the latter not so much.
                      They sold their bulk,could be hundreds or thousands of boxes/bushels/barrels,then resupply.We do not know how their system/operation worked but 2x a month or several days in a row.The latter,the auction posters imply.

                      --

                      I tried to go by the inquests only and see what those implied.One thing is sure it did not say anything about a lunatic for ex.



                      ------

                      .
                      Last edited by Varqm; 01-14-2019, 01:00 PM.
                      Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
                      M. Pacana

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by APerno View Post
                        Are you stating that the market was only open one week a month, or that this particular individual only sold at this (continuously open) market one week a month?

                        If it is the former than that is interesting, if it is the latter not so much.
                        Basically one of these salesmen/representatives had fruit auctions on near/around the end of the month and 8th.


                        ----
                        Last edited by Varqm; 01-14-2019, 09:55 PM.
                        Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
                        M. Pacana

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Busy Beaver View Post
                          The Ripper was certainly someone who absolutely knew his killing zone and how to get out before getting caught. He knew how to dodge Joe Public getting up for work, who could be a potential witness and I think he had a pretty good idea of police beats and could have had an almost a cast-iron excuse or alibi to be told to move on if stopped by a member of London's finest. He quite possibly did have a job in a market or even a Railway station- somewhere, where the Killer could blend in with the crowds and not be remotely suspicious. There may even be a possibility that Jack worked outwith the London area, only coming back into Whitechapel on certain Weekends and Bank Holidays.
                          It was very dark,the bars were closed (except maybe Stride),the fixed points were gone,around the murder sites (except maybe
                          Chapman) it was mostly deserted - there were no newspaper reports,nobody saw a man walking away in an unusual manner after the murders.

                          I agree,he took precautions I think and some knowledge of police beats was part of them.After the "will you" in Chapman's case the man/killer did not talk when witnesses were around - Brown,Lawende and co., Cox, and obviously Lewis.In Kellys case I believe Blotchy returned,after casing Kelly/Miller's court,as Kelly's killer was an intruder/unexpected,approaching within a few feet/distance for Kelly to scream "Oh murder".

                          As posted before,the characteristics,in my opinion that somehow mattered,left by the killer,inquests only:

                          1) he killed between past midnight and 5:20 AM - Cadosche "I heard a voice say "No".

                          2) little taller than the victim,then compared to the
                          height of the victim.

                          3) not uncomfortable to be seen with the victims minutes before their murders.

                          4) Dates of the murders,end of the month or the 8th. - key

                          5) direction from Mitre Square to Goulston. - key

                          6) Cox's description.

                          7) experience with a knife and inside the body,animals and/or human - slaughtering/butchery/post mortem/vivisection

                          8) human and perhaps animal anatomical knowledge

                          9) Killed between Aug 31 - Nov 8-9 (arguably seen on the 8th by Cox,in my opinion Blotchy who returned as seen by Lewis)

                          10) Tied to Spitalfield/Whitechapel due to work,residence,etc..

                          11) killed within a square mile.


                          ------
                          Last edited by Varqm; 01-15-2019, 03:16 PM.
                          Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
                          M. Pacana

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            in my opinion Blotchy who returned as seen by Lewis)

                            I wonder, if Blotchy did return, it was because the heat was a bit too much in the Court ie: Cox, Prater and other residents coming and going at his first visit. It possible that he took the time to case the joint and feel at ease, especially since he was inside and felt comfortable coming back. That would make some sense because no-one saw MJK come out of her room after 1.00am and we know from Mary Cox that there was no light coming from MJK's room at 1.30am. So the only reasonable deduction is that Blotchy as JTR returned to MJK's room and as soon as she opened the door, he grabbed her and started to murder her in the usual JTR way. BUT- I don't think Blotchy was JTR.
                            He stood too much to lose when being seen by Cox as he walked up the Court with MJK. The killer must have surfaced some time after 3.00am, other wise I am certain that Cox could easily have been his next victim if he was earlier as she was in and out of the court between 1.00am and 3.00am. JTR killed whoever he came across first, unless Cox was standing somewhere that may have been too risky and also assuming she was soliciting. Prater heard the cry of "oh murder" after 3.30am. Did MJK come out of her room when Cox and Prater were snuggly tucked up, meet the Ripper on Dorset street, brought him home and was under attack in minutes. That is the real conundrum "Did Mary J Kelly come out of her room after 1.30am?" George Hutchison seems to think she did- Is there any paperwork about that records George describing What Mary was wearing on the morning he met her? Would the Police even think of asking him that? Mary Cox gave a good detailed description of both Blotchy and Kelly.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Busy Beaver View Post
                              in my opinion Blotchy who returned as seen by Lewis)

                              I wonder, if Blotchy did return, it was because the heat was a bit too much in the Court ie: Cox, Prater and other residents coming and going at his first visit. It possible that he took the time to case the joint and feel at ease, especially since he was inside and felt comfortable coming back. That would make some sense because no-one saw MJK come out of her room after 1.00am and we know from Mary Cox that there was no light coming from MJK's room at 1.30am. So the only reasonable deduction is that Blotchy as JTR returned to MJK's room and as soon as she opened the door, he grabbed her and started to murder her in the usual JTR way. BUT- I don't think Blotchy was JTR.
                              He stood too much to lose when being seen by Cox as he walked up the Court with MJK. The killer must have surfaced some time after 3.00am, other wise I am certain that Cox could easily have been his next victim if he was earlier as she was in and out of the court between 1.00am and 3.00am. JTR killed whoever he came across first, unless Cox was standing somewhere that may have been too risky and also assuming she was soliciting. Prater heard the cry of "oh murder" after 3.30am. Did MJK come out of her room when Cox and Prater were snuggly tucked up, meet the Ripper on Dorset street, brought him home and was under attack in minutes. That is the real conundrum "Did Mary J Kelly come out of her room after 1.30am?" George Hutchison seems to think she did- Is there any paperwork about that records George describing What Mary was wearing on the morning he met her? Would the Police even think of asking him that? Mary Cox gave a good detailed description of both Blotchy and Kelly.
                              personally I don't think mary went out after Blotchy. all the circs point to not:
                              already drunk
                              more ale in the pot
                              bad night, fire going
                              singing to blotchy, seems very comfy with him
                              food in belly
                              looking forward to lord mayers show

                              and I highly doubt blotchy, if he was the ripper, would risk losing his prey by leaving.

                              no, it was blotchy, or stalker hutch, just possibly mary went out later and ran into the Bethnal Green botherer.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment

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