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  • #46
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post

    leviticus 9:20 and placed these on the breasts. Aaron burned the fat portions on the altar,
    but he waved the breasts and the right thigh as a wave offering before the LORD


    mary kelly's breasts were cut off and placed about her, while her right-thigh was hacked to the bone.

    it's often asked why the killer targeted the kidney in eddowes' murder. quite a random organ to target and not the easiest to extract.
    leviticus 3:4 holds the answer
    Plenty of Gentiles were familiar with the Bible, why only a Jew?
    Regards, Jon S.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
      Plenty of Gentiles were familiar with the Bible, why only a Jew?
      observance of the torah is more of a jewish thing, no?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Harry D View Post
        observance of the torah is more of a jewish thing, no?
        We don't know if it constitutes observance, it's just the Pentateuch to a Christian.
        Regards, Jon S.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Harry D View Post
          Abby is incorrect on one thing, at least.
          The killer was not a gentile, he was almost certainly a jew.
          Read leviticus and you will see.

          leviticus 9:20 and placed these on the breasts. Aaron burned the fat portions on the altar,
          but he waved the breasts and the right thigh as a wave offering before the LORD


          mary kelly's breasts were cut off and placed about her, while her right-thigh was hacked to the bone.

          it's often asked why the killer targeted the kidney in eddowes' murder. quite a random organ to target and not the easiest to extract.
          leviticus 3:4 holds the answer
          Sorry, but I don't think Leviticus "holds the answer", unless you are looking for a way to support a theory. Somebody who thinks in terms of the bible will see the bible. Somebody who thinks in terms of butchery manuals will ask if the bodies were bled to make black pudding.


          Blind speculation is not an answer.


          For all we know, the killer could just like to bleed his victims, and could just find that particular squidgy organ interesting because not despite it being awkward to get to.


          Even if we could show a link between the killing methods and Leviticus, that was somehow compelling, it would be a further leap of faith to suggest this meant the killer was driven by a Jewish faith. We know Leviticus is common to the Christian bible as well, and indeed, it is still a touchstone of many unpleasant interpretations of the Christian faith, used to justify several kinds of hatred and bigotry. You offer no compelling reason to suggest why taking a common text terribly literally would be exclusive to a suspect of the Jewish faith, and not a fire and brimstone Christian?
          There Will Be Trouble! http://www.amazon.co.uk/A-Little-Tro...s=T.+E.+Hodden

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          • #50
            the kidney is mentioned numerous times as a sacrificial offering in the pentateuch.

            the kidney is a random organ to target. not the easiest to find or extract, which would rule out a snatch n' grab.

            he obviously felt it held special value. the only ritualistic significance of the kidney can be found in the jewish bible. for christians, jesus WAS the final sacrifice. however, for a deranged jew looking to atone for his sins, this would be rejected in favour of ritual sacrifice.

            leviticus also cites the removal of the breasts and right thigh as an offering. same thing happened to mary kelly.

            the ripper was a jew.

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            • #51
              Apropos of some of the crumbs of the aforementioned; I've ruminated on the "sacrificial" style of the killings - sailing dangerously close to Stephen Knight's waters.
              There were many soldiers returning from theatres of conflict in the British Empire - and many colonial subjects following suit - wherein tribal sacrifice was practiced. The Yoruban practice may still be found to this day in Muti killings and the like - the sacrificial blade being a Sewuj (Juwes?) . The Thugee performed similar rituals.

              Might muti killing - or copycat killing mimicked from witnessed rituals - and suchlike be behind such objective and fastidious post mortem mutilation?

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                the kidney is mentioned numerous times as a sacrificial offering in the pentateuch.

                the kidney is a random organ to target. not the easiest to find or extract, which would rule out a snatch n' grab.

                he obviously felt it held special value. the only ritualistic significance of the kidney can be found in the jewish bible. for christians, jesus WAS the final sacrifice. however, for a deranged jew looking to atone for his sins, this would be rejected in favour of ritual sacrifice.

                leviticus also cites the removal of the breasts and right thigh as an offering. same thing happened to mary kelly.

                the ripper was a jew.
                Hello Harry

                While this theory is interesting, I think it needs to be addressed that the Leviticus-verses you invoke are about male animals?
                A Jewish ritual sacrifice would require a bull or a ram, not a cow or an ewe.

                Also somewhat problematic is the KJV translation of thigh as shoulder, so the version actually known to LVP would have been “the breasts and the right shoulder”. But of course one could claim that a Jew might have learned the original hebrew.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                  the kidney is mentioned numerous times as a sacrificial offering in the pentateuch.

                  the kidney is a random organ to target. not the easiest to find or extract, which would rule out a snatch n' grab.

                  he obviously felt it held special value. the only ritualistic significance of the kidney can be found in the jewish bible. for christians, jesus WAS the final sacrifice. however, for a deranged jew looking to atone for his sins, this would be rejected in favour of ritual sacrifice.

                  leviticus also cites the removal of the breasts and right thigh as an offering. same thing happened to mary kelly.

                  the ripper was a jew.
                  How can you possibly say the "only" ritual significance of the kidney can be found in the Jewish bible, when we have no grounds on which to claim the ritual significance is from ANY religious texts?

                  How do we know the purpose of the ritual was sacrifice? Plenty of serial killers, or for that matter plenty of people, have adopted ritualistic behaviour without it being forced to match any mainstream dogma.

                  I'm sorry, but we could as easily argue that he was going for the kidney, because he knew it could be devilled for breakfast, and that desanguination is good slaughter practise, without religion appearing as well.

                  And for what it is worth, if somebody's perspective is skewered enough to believe that Leviticus is the ritual guide to killing humans as sacrifice, I think it is fair to believe they could be warped from the bible as it is from anywhere else.
                  There Will Be Trouble! http://www.amazon.co.uk/A-Little-Tro...s=T.+E.+Hodden

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Fantomas View Post
                    Apropos of some of the crumbs of the aforementioned; I've ruminated on the "sacrificial" style of the killings - sailing dangerously close to Stephen Knight's waters.
                    There were many soldiers returning from theatres of conflict in the British Empire - and many colonial subjects following suit - wherein tribal sacrifice was practiced. The Yoruban practice may still be found to this day in Muti killings and the like - the sacrificial blade being a Sewuj (Juwes?) . The Thugee performed similar rituals.

                    Might muti killing - or copycat killing mimicked from witnessed rituals - and suchlike be behind such objective and fastidious post mortem mutilation?
                    hi Fantomas
                    I do think there might have been a ritualistic reason that the ripper did what he did-but probably more for his own sick inner fantasy than anything else.

                    however, if there was some sort of external force driving it, I do rather like this idea as being the most likely.

                    in my profile, I posit he was probably ex military or navy or sailor, so that jibes with your idea.

                    also, your idea made me think of early serial killer Albert Fish, who when writing the letter to the parents of the girl he killed, cut up and cannibalized, he said he got the idea after his friend (although it was probably him) told him a story about doing it after disasterous trip on a ship abroad.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by TomTomKent View Post
                      How can you possibly say the "only" ritual significance of the kidney can be found in the Jewish bible, when we have no grounds on which to claim the ritual significance is from ANY religious texts?

                      How do we know the purpose of the ritual was sacrifice? Plenty of serial killers, or for that matter plenty of people, have adopted ritualistic behaviour without it being forced to match any mainstream dogma.

                      I'm sorry, but we could as easily argue that he was going for the kidney, because he knew it could be devilled for breakfast, and that desanguination is good slaughter practise, without religion appearing as well.

                      And for what it is worth, if somebody's perspective is skewered enough to believe that Leviticus is the ritual guide to killing humans as sacrifice, I think it is fair to believe they could be warped from the bible as it is from anywhere else.
                      This isn't a clear-cut case. If it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

                      That being said, it only requires a little interpretation of the physical evidence to see that the killer was carrying out the sacrificial rites of Leviticus.

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