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  • #16
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    Hi gary
    I should have posted that i dont think its rock solid everthing i listed he must have, but i think most of them probably he would. And some of them i feel stronger about and would be more of a dealbreaker, and of course some suspects are missing more of these than others.

    But you got me thinking now alomg these lines. If i did hold strictly to this list and rule suspects out if even if they are missing even just one, is anyone left?
    Hutch would be out, because he dosnt have his own place, as would barnett and flemimg. That would leave bury, lech amd kelly?

    Anything on my list rule them out also?

    Did i just rule out my favored suspect hutch? Lol
    Did Bury, Lech or Kelly have experience of cutting up animals?

    (Controversial!)

    Comment


    • #17
      I agree with most of Abby’s profile as there is supporting evidence.

      There are credible witness descriptions on his age, height and build.

      Lawende and PC Smith saw the victim with a man 15 minutes before the body was found. It’s highly likely this was the killer.

      Lawende’s description (Catherine Eddowes) : Aged 30, 5’7″, fair complexion, brown moustache, medium build

      PC William Smith (Elizabeth Stride) : Aged 28, cleanshaven and respectable appearance, 5’7″.

      I think William Marshall’s description of the man he saw with Elizabeth Stride an hour and a quarter before her body was found is too similar to have been a different person to the man described by PC Smith. Marshall’s description was middle aged, round cap with a small sailor-like peak. 5’6″, stout, appearance of a clerk, no moustache.

      Marshall heard the man say “You would say anything but your prayers.” Spoken mildly, with an English accent, and in an educated manner.

      These three witness descriptions suggest Jack was 28 – 35 years, 5’7”, fair complexion, no beard, medium / stout build, respectable, educated (Elizabeth Long – who likely saw the Ripper but didn’t see his face – said “shabby genteel”)

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Craig H View Post
        I agree with most of Abby’s profile as there is supporting evidence.

        There are credible witness descriptions on his age, height and build.

        Lawende and PC Smith saw the victim with a man 15 minutes before the body was found. It’s highly likely this was the killer.

        Lawende’s description (Catherine Eddowes) : Aged 30, 5’7″, fair complexion, brown moustache, medium build

        PC William Smith (Elizabeth Stride) : Aged 28, cleanshaven and respectable appearance, 5’7″.

        I think William Marshall’s description of the man he saw with Elizabeth Stride an hour and a quarter before her body was found is too similar to have been a different person to the man described by PC Smith. Marshall’s description was middle aged, round cap with a small sailor-like peak. 5’6″, stout, appearance of a clerk, no moustache.

        Marshall heard the man say “You would say anything but your prayers.” Spoken mildly, with an English accent, and in an educated manner.

        These three witness descriptions suggest Jack was 28 – 35 years, 5’7”, fair complexion, no beard, medium / stout build, respectable, educated (Elizabeth Long – who likely saw the Ripper but didn’t see his face – said “shabby genteel”)
        We don't know which witnesses did and didn't see Jack. Also witness descriptions are not always that accurate.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Craig H View Post
          I agree with most of Abby’s profile as there is supporting evidence.

          There are credible witness descriptions on his age, height and build.

          Lawende and PC Smith saw the victim with a man 15 minutes before the body was found. It’s highly likely this was the killer.

          Lawende’s description (Catherine Eddowes) : Aged 30, 5’7″, fair complexion, brown moustache, medium build

          PC William Smith (Elizabeth Stride) : Aged 28, cleanshaven and respectable appearance, 5’7″.

          I think William Marshall’s description of the man he saw with Elizabeth Stride an hour and a quarter before her body was found is too similar to have been a different person to the man described by PC Smith. Marshall’s description was middle aged, round cap with a small sailor-like peak. 5’6″, stout, appearance of a clerk, no moustache.

          Marshall heard the man say “You would say anything but your prayers.” Spoken mildly, with an English accent, and in an educated manner.

          These three witness descriptions suggest Jack was 28 – 35 years, 5’7”, fair complexion, no beard, medium / stout build, respectable, educated (Elizabeth Long – who likely saw the Ripper but didn’t see his face – said “shabby genteel”)
          I don't get the feeling anybody is dismissing it out of hand. I think that people are asking questions is a good sign that people are interested (I know I am) to see how she reached her conclusions. At this point, I don't have enough information to agree or disagree, but either way... it is interesting.
          There Will Be Trouble! http://www.amazon.co.uk/A-Little-Tro...s=T.+E.+Hodden

          Comment


          • #20
            Hi john
            I think we do have credible witnesses
            Both PC Smith and Lawende saw a similar man with each of the victims 15 minutes before the body was found.
            In each situation, the woman was comfortable with the man.
            The most likely scenario is this was the Ripper
            Craig

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by TomTomKent View Post
              I don't get the feeling anybody is dismissing it out of hand. I think that people are asking questions is a good sign that people are interested (I know I am) to see how she reached her conclusions. At this point, I don't have enough information to agree or disagree, but either way... it is interesting.
              Don’t quote me, but I think she is a he.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                Don’t quote me, but I think she is a he.
                Correct.

                Abby, short for Abednego. Or Abimelech. Or possibly Abiathar.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Craig H View Post
                  Hi john
                  I think we do have credible witnesses
                  Both PC Smith and Lawende saw a similar man with each of the victims 15 minutes before the body was found.
                  In each situation, the woman was comfortable with the man.
                  The most likely scenario is this was the Ripper
                  Craig
                  But fifteen minutes could easily mean the person with the vctim was not Jack.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                    But fifteen minutes could easily mean the person with the vctim was not Jack.
                    That’s always a scenario that is open to us.
                    G U T

                    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      Correct.

                      Abby, short for Abednego. Or Abimelech. Or possibly Abiathar.
                      Or simply from "young Frankenstein "


                      Steve

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                        Don’t quote me, but I think she is a he.
                        Absolutely my mistake.
                        Abby, I am very sorry for any offence caused, it was entirely unintentional, you have my unreserved apologies.
                        There Will Be Trouble! http://www.amazon.co.uk/A-Little-Tro...s=T.+E.+Hodden

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TomTomKent View Post
                          Absolutely my mistake.
                          Abby, I am very sorry for any offence caused, it was entirely unintentional, you have my unreserved apologies.
                          lol. no worries, and yes taken from Young Frankenstein
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            a lot of these explanations are based on my reasoned assumptions, such as lawende, Schwartz, cox, marshall, pc smith and mrs long probably saw the ripper. also that GSG was written by him. and from what we now know about serial killers and postmortem types.


                            Aged 28-43-witness descriptions (wd) and from the fact that many serial killers post mortem type usually start in late twenties. Dahmer, who I believe is closest to the ripper in MO and sig, started age 28.

                            Below average height-wd. and height of GSG

                            Stout, powerfully built-wd. and specifically Schwartz "broad shoulders.

                            Light brown/ ginger hair-wd. perhaps would explain discrepencies between brown, fair, carroty colored hair by witnesses. my son has curly/wiry sandy brown/ginger hair and based on lighting can look brown, dark brown, reddish and even blonde.

                            mustache-wd

                            Local, lived in immediate area-all murders within one square mile, gsg written in direction from mitre square headed back into heart of WC. killer seemed to know area very well.
                            Walked when committing murders, possible use of cart-see above. cart use is just a guess as it would aid escape and detection.

                            English-wd. especially ones who heard him talk. no mention of accent.

                            Gentile-"lipski!" and gsg. I doubt a jew would implicate his own kind.

                            Steady work, probably involving manuel labor-when he killed on holidays and weekends point to steady work. his ability to kill quickly and quietly point to being strong and in shape-kept up by work requiring "exercise".

                            Lower class but not poor-see above-steady job and wd-"respectable".

                            Had own place, though modest-see above steady job-would be able to afford. needed own bolt hole for trophies and post murder activities(masturbation and canabalism) plus to wash up in private. Abbarline didn't think you find him in "dossers kitchen".

                            Frequented pubs and drinker-blotchy with ale and what we know about serial killers-and that he felt comfortable fraternizing with prostitutes.

                            Single or dominated wife-needed privacy or spouse who wouldn't question strange behavior.

                            Knew prostitues and socialized with-seemed very comfortable around them and was able to convince them he was normal joe even at height of ripper scare.

                            Had problems having sex-guess based on no overt sexual behavior.

                            Former military and or navy/ sailor-many serial killers are and peaked cap-"like a sailor would wear".

                            Very familiar with knife-sig and MO point to this. escalation (millwood, tabram and on) point to someone used to carrying and using a knife. also contemperous expert opinion.

                            Accustomed to carrying knife before murder spree-see above. was probably fascinated with knives and used them a lot from early age.

                            Appears very cocky to people-
                            Thinks he is smarter than anyone else-
                            Self assured-this and above two based on interaction with victims-able to go from murder of stride to eddowes in short order. Marshal-"you would say anything but your prayers" etc. long-"will you?" "yes".

                            Cunning-able to ruse victims at height of ripper scare and get away at the nick of time. anyone who could pull off double event night would need to be cunning IMHO.

                            Experience cutting up animals-see above use with knife, and many serial killers start by torturing cutting up animals as youths.

                            Probable anatomical knowledge, possible medical/surgical experience-drs at the time and modern experts. evidence-cutting around navel, extraction of kidney. being able to do so quickly in limited light.

                            NO or very light criminal record-guess based on ability of getting away in nick of time. I think he was accustomed to and good at "getting away" with things.

                            No overt mental illness-wd, seemed normal, "smooth" even. plus I don't think if he had overt mental illness he would have been able to lure victims at height of ripper crimes, and stay un caught for that matter.

                            Read newspapers-the way he posed victims, wrote gsg-shock value-point to someone who enjoyed his work and how it affected everyone and would thus like to read about his work.

                            Main motivation-Fascinated with the female body and what his knife could do to it-based on wounds. internal and external parts targeted.sexual areas targeted. "playful" use of knife-nicking eddowes eyelids. no torture involved-everything post mortem.

                            Possible masterbation and or cannibalism with trophies/ parts-guess based on past post mortem type sk behavior. from hell letter. organs removed and taken away. trophies often used to relive fantasy and masturbate with.

                            Secondary motivation-Enjoyed shocking / toying with the public-victims displayed. gsg.

                            Looked down on police-guess based on much of above. dear boss letter.

                            No interest in torture, all interest post mortem-well known and see above

                            Curiosity big factor in motivation
                            -guess based on wounds and removal of internal parts and sig-wanted to see what they were like. and what his knife could do to the female body.


                            I know not very scientific, but there it is IMHO.
                            Last edited by Abby Normal; 12-03-2018, 06:47 AM.
                            "Is all that we see or seem
                            but a dream within a dream?"

                            -Edgar Allan Poe


                            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                            -Frederick G. Abberline

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                              a lot of these explanations are based on my reasoned assumptions, such as lawende, Schwartz, cox, marshall, pc smith and mrs long probably saw the ripper. also that GSG was written by him. and from what we now know about serial killers and postmortem types.


                              Aged 28-43-witness descriptions (wd) and from the fact that many serial killers post mortem type usually start in late twenties. Dahmer, who I believe is closest to the ripper in MO and sig, started age 28.

                              Below average height-wd. and height of GSG

                              Stout, powerfully built-wd. and specifically Schwartz "broad shoulders.

                              Light brown/ ginger hair-wd. perhaps would explain discrepencies between brown, fair, carroty colored hair by witnesses. my son has curly/wiry sandy brown/ginger hair and based on lighting can look brown, dark brown, reddish and even blonde.

                              mustache-wd

                              Local, lived in immediate area-all murders within one square mile, gsg written in direction from mitre square headed back into heart of WC. killer seemed to know area very well.
                              Walked when committing murders, possible use of cart-see above. cart use is just a guess as it would aid escape and detection.

                              English-wd. especially ones who heard him talk. no mention of accent.

                              Gentile-"lipski!" and gsg. I doubt a jew would implicate his own kind.

                              Steady work, probably involving manuel labor-when he killed on holidays and weekends point to steady work. his ability to kill quickly and quietly point to being strong and in shape-kept up by work requiring "exercise".

                              Lower class but not poor-see above-steady job and wd-"respectable".

                              Had own place, though modest-see above steady job-would be able to afford. needed own bolt hole for trophies and post murder activities(masturbation and canabalism) plus to wash up in private. Abbarline didn't think you find him in "dossers kitchen".

                              Frequented pubs and drinker-blotchy with ale and what we know about serial killers-and that he felt comfortable fraternizing with prostitutes.

                              Single or dominated wife-needed privacy or spouse who wouldn't question strange behavior.

                              Knew prostitues and socialized with-seemed very comfortable around them and was able to convince them he was normal joe even at height of ripper scare.

                              Had problems having sex-guess based on no overt sexual behavior.

                              Former military and or navy/ sailor-many serial killers are and peaked cap-"like a sailor would wear".

                              Very familiar with knife-sig and MO point to this. escalation (millwood, tabram and on) point to someone used to carrying and using a knife. also contemperous expert opinion.

                              Accustomed to carrying knife before murder spree-see above. was probably fascinated with knives and used them a lot from early age.

                              Appears very cocky to people-
                              Thinks he is smarter than anyone else-
                              Self assured-this and above two based on interaction with victims-able to go from murder of stride to eddowes in short order. Marshal-"you would say anything but your prayers" etc. long-"will you?" "yes".

                              Cunning-able to ruse victims at height of ripper scare and get away at the nick of time. anyone who could pull off double event night would need to be cunning IMHO.

                              Experience cutting up animals-see above use with knife, and many serial killers start by torturing cutting up animals as youths.

                              Probable anatomical knowledge, possible medical/surgical experience-drs at the time and modern experts. evidence-cutting around navel, extraction of kidney. being able to do so quickly in limited light.

                              NO or very light criminal record-guess based on ability of getting away in nick of time. I think he was accustomed to and good at "getting away" with things.

                              No overt mental illness-wd, seemed normal, "smooth" even. plus I don't think if he had overt mental illness he would have been able to lure victims at height of ripper crimes, and stay un caught for that matter.

                              Read newspapers-the way he posed victims, wrote gsg-shock value-point to someone who enjoyed his work and how it affected everyone and would thus like to read about his work.

                              Main motivation-Fascinated with the female body and what his knife could do to it-based on wounds. internal and external parts targeted.sexual areas targeted. "playful" use of knife-nicking eddowes eyelids. no torture involved-everything post mortem.

                              Possible masterbation and or cannibalism with trophies/ parts-guess based on past post mortem type sk behavior. from hell letter. organs removed and taken away. trophies often used to relive fantasy and masturbate with.

                              Secondary motivation-Enjoyed shocking / toying with the public-victims displayed. gsg.

                              Looked down on police-guess based on much of above. dear boss letter.

                              No interest in torture, all interest post mortem-well known and see above

                              Curiosity big factor in motivation
                              -guess based on wounds and removal of internal parts and sig-wanted to see what they were like. and what his knife could do to the female body.


                              I know not very scientific, but there it is IMHO.


                              Abby,

                              Thank you for your response to my question.

                              First the GSG, I like many others are still not convinced that it is by the killer, but for the sake of argument, let's except it is.

                              We now have just what does "JUWES" mean, while i will personally go with it means Jewish persons, that is not the only possible alternative.
                              Those arguing for conspiracies have their answers as did our old friend Pierre.
                              And of course Tom Wescott has suggested it referees to the Stride murder, linking the two.


                              However again let's accept it is a misspelling of "Jews"

                              We then have the knotty question of how do we view the message.

                              Is it simply anti Semitic?

                              Is it an attempt to point a finger at the Jewish community?

                              Or is it someone boasting about themselves?


                              I have to say, I find it far to complicated to reach a conclusion which goes "Must be a Gentile".

                              2nd point, Lipski.

                              First point, it is far from certain that BS man was the Killer Of Stride, and while it is probably, it is not certain. Not is it certain that BS man was the Ripper. Again I feel it is probably so, but it is not certain.

                              Again however let's accept that BS man is JTR.

                              Several alternatives arise from here,

                              The obvious one that BS man is ridiculing Schwartz, whom for this purpose we must assume was obviously Jewish looking, what ever that actually means.


                              The second, and again it is often used alternative, is that BS man was calling to Pipeman.


                              There is another alternative which has been raised several times, most recently in the Lawende was silenced thread, by Pat post #790 in October.


                              This is related to the polish word for nosy, this is

                              wścibski

                              Now that does sound very similar to Lipski, and if said just once to a non Polish speaker, could perhaps be misheard, particularly if you were aware of the Name Lipski and the earlier case.

                              To me, that certainly causes enough doubt and again does not point towards a Gentile.
                              Of course you may disagree and as always such is fine by me



                              Steve
                              Last edited by Elamarna; 12-03-2018, 07:58 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                                Abby,

                                Thank you for your response to my question.

                                First the GSG, I like many others are still not convinced that it is by the killer, but for the sake of argument, let's except it is.

                                We now have just what does "JUWES" mean, while i will personally go with it means Jewish persons, that is not the only possible alternative.
                                Those arguing for conspiracies have their answers as did our old friend Pierre.
                                And of course Tom Wescott has suggested it referees to the Stride murder, linking the two.


                                However again let's accept it is a misspelling of "Jews"

                                We then have the knotty question of how do we view the message.

                                Is it simply anti Semitic?

                                Is it an attempt to point a finger at the Jewish community?

                                Or is it someone boasting about themselves?


                                I have to say, I find it far to complicated to reach a conclusion which goes "Must be a Gentile".

                                2nd point, Lipski.

                                First point, it is far from certain that BS man was the Killer Of Stride, and while it is probably, it is not certain. Not is it certain that BS man was the Ripper. Again I feel it is probably so, but it is not certain.

                                Again however let's accept that BS man is JTR.

                                Several alternatives arise from here,

                                The obvious one that BS man is ridiculing Schwartz, whom for this purpose we must assume was obviously Jewish looking, what ever that actually means.


                                The second, and again it is often used alternative, is that BS man was calling to Pipeman.


                                There is another alternative which has been raised several times, most recently in the Lawende was silenced thread, by Pat post #790 in October.


                                This is related to the polish word for nosy, this is

                                wścibski

                                Now that does sound very similar to Lipski, and if said just once to a non Polish speaker, could perhaps be misheard, particularly if you were aware of the Name Lipski and the earlier case.

                                To me, that certainly causes enough doubt and again does not point towards a Gentile.
                                Of course you may disagree and as always such is fine by me



                                Steve
                                Hi el
                                thanks for the response and I really have no problem with anything you say here. just a couple of points.

                                We then have the knotty question of how do we view the message.

                                Is it simply anti Semitic?

                                Is it an attempt to point a finger at the Jewish community?

                                Or is it someone boasting about themselves?


                                I have to say, I find it far to complicated to reach a conclusion which goes "Must be a Gentile".

                                i go with your number 2 above. I remeber reading an expert on cockney/victorian language that it means-the jews wont take the blame for anything. meaning they should.


                                also, abberline and others beleived it was meant to incriminate the jews at the time.


                                I don't think a jewish killer would implicate himself or incriminate his own kind-hence a gentile.


                                The obvious one that BS man is ridiculing Schwartz, whom for this purpose we must assume was obviously Jewish looking, what ever that actually means.


                                The second, and again it is often used alternative, is that BS man was calling to Pipeman.

                                I think BS man was using the lipski slur/shout to scare off Schwartz, who looked very jewish according abberline.

                                There is another alternative which has been raised several times, most recently in the Lawende was silenced thread, by Pat post #790 in October.


                                This is related to the polish word for nosy, this is

                                wścibski

                                Now that does sound very similar to Lipski, and if said just once to a non Polish speaker, could perhaps be misheard, particularly if you were aware of the Name Lipski and the earlier case.

                                To me, that certainly causes enough doubt and again does not point towards a Gentile.
                                Of course you may disagree and as always such is fine by me




                                interesting-but at no time does Schwartz state that he was a foreigner let alone polish. he also dosnt seem to be confused at what the man shouted. it was lipski-a slur used by local people against jews.

                                so I disagree- I doubt a jewish killer would use a jewish slur against another jewish man-hence a gentile.
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

                                Comment

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