The face of Leather Apron

[Pcdunn]

Actually, Pat. you picked up on something on the sketch I found and posted that made me look a lot closer at the Piser sketch posted by Josh. On zooming in, doesn't the first sketch also represent a large scar down the left cheek, rather than a 'monacle', and I wonder if perhaps the pointed bushy beard might actually be supposed to be the right shoulder area, unskillfully executed and merged with the five days growth?

Hello, Deb,

That is an interesting comment, and on second glance at the sketch in your post, I agree that it could be a scar. The beard seems very pointed, but the artist isn't too talented. Maybe he wanted to convey the "foreign" aspect of the subject.

[Abby Normal]

Hi AN



I`m not sure of the colour, but he had a beard


He was raving in a pub in Gravesend and the landlady sent for a bobby



He was under police supervision in the infirmary during the Double Event.

OK thanks so much

I'm pretty sure he was described as having red hair-the man seen in Fiddymonts pub, not sure about Piggot.

because Fiddymont man has been floated as being blotchy(carroty) before

[Jon Guy]

Hi AN

questions:

piggot was described as having red hair and facial hair correct?

I`m not sure of the colour, but he had a beard

how did Piggot first come to police attention?

He was raving in a pub in Gravesend and the landlady sent for a bobby

How was he cleared?

He was under police supervision in the infirmary during the Double Event.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Debs/Jon/all

Piggot was apparently in a lineup, viewed by Ms Fiddymont and two other people who were in the bar that morning and saw him. One of these was a man who followed him out.

questions:

piggot was described as having red hair and facial hair correct?

how did Piggot first come to police attention?

How was he cleared?

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon,
According to the Morning Advertiser 12th Sept;
"mrs. Fiddyman, the landlay of the house into which it was stated a blood-stained and wild-looking man entered shortly after the hour at which the murder was probably committed on Saturday morning, has been taken to Leman-street station, and on seeing Pizer she expressed herself as quite certain that he was not the man who came into her house on the occasion spoken of."

Do you think the confusion extended to more than the sketch artist?
If Piggott and Piser were at different police stations, it sems less easy to imagine how it may have occurred.

Hi JR

They may have taken Piggot down to Leman Street for the line up.
But Piggot was definitely taken by carriage from the railway station to Commercial Street with Abberline.

But, looking at the newspaper report, which I think you touched on, maybe the newspaper just put the wrong name to the sketch

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi JR

Piggott was in the Fiddymont line up, and Pizer was in the Emanuel Violenia line up.
Both taken into custody on Monday morning, although Pizer was taken to Leman Street, and Piggott to Commercial Street.

Hi Jon,
According to the Morning Advertiser 12th Sept;
"mrs. Fiddyman, the landlay of the house into which it was stated a blood-stained and wild-looking man entered shortly after the hour at which the murder was probably committed on Saturday morning, has been taken to Leman-street station, and on seeing Pizer she expressed herself as quite certain that he was not the man who came into her house on the occasion spoken of."

Do you think the confusion extended to more than the sketch artist?
If Piggott and Piser were at different police stations, it sems less easy to imagine how it may have occurred.

[Jon Guy]

Thanks Jon, I was just wondering why the Leather Apron in the drawing I posted was apparently sketched with a scar on his cheek. And, close up, the sketch Joshua posted looks like Pizer/Piggott is also sporting a scar on his cheek, rather than it being supposed to represent a monacle?

Hi Debs

Yes, I can see that mark on the Pizer sketch.
The detailed description of Pizer mentions no scar but does say this: "grizzly black strips of hair, nearly an inch in length, which almost covered the face"

What do you think ?

[Debra A]

There is quite a detailed description of Pizer, but no mention of a boil on his cheek.

Thanks Jon, I was just wondering why the Leather Apron in the drawing I posted was apparently sketched with a scar on his cheek. And, close up, the sketch Joshua posted looks like Pizer/Piggott is also sporting a scar on his cheek, rather than it being supposed to represent a monacle?

[Jon Guy]

I wonder if the carbuncular boil eruption Pizer was treated for in Paddington Infirmary in May 1888 was on his cheek and not his neck?

There is quite a detailed description of Pizer, but no mention of a boil on his cheek.

[Jon Guy]

Funnily enough, Piggott is mentioned in the paragraph above, so I assumed it was him until I saw the caption (it's pretty close to how I pictured him). So you (and Chris) may well be correct.
It also mentions that it was Piggott who Mrs Fiddymont failed to pick out of a lineup, whereas I'm pretty sure that another article said this was Piser.
I suppose they could both have been in the lineup, but still...

Hi JR

Piggott was in the Fiddymont line up, and Pizer was in the Emanuel Violenia line up.
Both taken into custody on Monday morning, although Pizer was taken to Leman Street, and Piggott to Commercial Street.

[Jon Guy]

To be honest, I hadn't really thought too much about it until Chris mentioned it once and then he got me wondering. IIRC Chris noted that Piser's description didn't feature a beard. That's the only part of his reasoning I remember offhand, but there was more to it.

Hi Debs

Yes, that is Piggott in the sketch. I believe the artist saw Piggott in custody and thought it was Pizer.

[Debra A]

I wonder if the carbuncular boil eruption Pizer was treated for in Paddington Infirmary in May 1888 was on his cheek and not his neck?

[Debra A]

I think the sketch of the fellow with the heavy 'tasche and a scar on his clean-shaven cheek is more likely to be Pizer or Piser, given that he was described as a ugly man who the boys taunted, or something of the sort.

The bearded gent has a monocle, for Pete's sake! Does look like Toulouse-Latrec, though.

I will add that many sketches of Ripper suspects who were presumed to be Jewish reflected a certain biogtry of the era.

Actually, Pat. you picked up on something on the sketch I found and posted that made me look a lot closer at the Piser sketch posted by Josh. On zooming in, doesn't the first sketch also represent a large scar down the left cheek, rather than a 'monacle', and I wonder if perhaps the pointed bushy beard might actually be supposed to be the right shoulder area, unskillfully executed and merged with the five days growth?

[Pcdunn]

I think the sketch of the fellow with the heavy 'tasche and a scar on his clean-shaven cheek is more likely to be Pizer or Piser, given that he was described as a ugly man who the boys taunted, or something of the sort.

The bearded gent has a monocle, for Pete's sake! Does look like Toulouse-Latrec, though.

I will add that many sketches of Ripper suspects who were presumed to be Jewish reflected a certain biogtry of the era.

[Joshua Rogan]

To be honest, I hadn't really thought too much about it until Chris mentioned it once and then he got me wondering. IIRC Chris noted that Piser's description didn't feature a beard. That's the only part of his reasoning I remember offhand, but there was more to it.

Yes, I think Piser was described as having two or three days of beard growth, but that looks a lot more to me.