New claims Jack the Ripper was noted poet who studied as a priest in the North East

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don't think comments have been too bad so far, Herlock, nor do I think you need to resort to keeping your thoughts to yourself. Casebook has a lot of members, but a relatively small group of regular active participants, many of whom know each other and have long-running debates. It isn't uncommon for newer members to feel out of their depth and ignored-- I've only been here since late 2014, myself, and often am ignored.

I think there have been so many "suspect books" (and, lately, films or TV programs) that the hard core Ripperologist community is primed to be stubborn about accepting the latest one.
Some members have their own suspect. Others don't know, but are skeptics about historical people being named, sometimes on flimsy evidence or imaginative conjecture.

Don't give up on the forums yet, Herlock!

Hi Pat

To be honest I may have partially mixed comments on here with ones made on the JTR Forum but it can be a but frustrating. If you read a book on a suspect and then make an assessment then that's what you're doing; assessing the suspect as he appears in that book, especially if you have no prior knowledge of the suspect(although I recall him being mentioned years ago. For eg I'm sure that everyone that read Richard Wallace's book on Dodgson didn't go out and read every Dodgson biography as background. Others on here and on the forum appear to have read Thompson biographies before and so have a yardstick that I don't have. If I got a bit defensive, and I probably did, it may be because I recall when the diary came out in '91, think. Many were immediately screaming 'forgery,' and 'amateurish fake,' many of them probably before they'd read the thing. And I always felt that some allowed personal bias to take over.

My copy of the Walsh biography came today so I can form a clearer opinion. After 30 years of being interested in the subject entering the world of technology can be tricky.

All the best
HS

[Pcdunn]

I don't think comments have been too bad so far, Herlock, nor do I think you need to resort to keeping your thoughts to yourself. Casebook has a lot of members, but a relatively small group of regular active participants, many of whom know each other and have long-running debates. It isn't uncommon for newer members to feel out of their depth and ignored-- I've only been here since late 2014, myself, and often am ignored.

I think there have been so many "suspect books" (and, lately, films or TV programs) that the hard core Ripperologist community is primed to be stubborn about accepting the latest one.
Some members have their own suspect. Others don't know, but are skeptics about historical people being named, sometimes on flimsy evidence or imaginative conjecture.

Don't give up on the forums yet, Herlock!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi, I know absolutely nothing about Thompson except for Hounds of Heaven. I just read Richard s book and felt that he seemed to have more going for him as a suspect than most. After I've read the Walsh biography I'm may not feel the same. But just for trying to keep an open mind, whilst admitting my lack of Thompson knowledge it seems that to some people that I'm a gullible idiot and they respond to points by adding 'duh' on the end. I like debate but I've never insulted anyone. At the very least, I can say that I actually read the book first. I joined the site for debate and discussion but it appears that my moderate views are blasphemous. Perhaps I should just stay silent.
Regards
HS

[Pcdunn]

Hi
I do find it surprising to say the least that people find nothing wrong with proposing Cross because he discovered a body and nothing else. Or Hutchinson because he said that he saw MJK and nothing else. Or Mann because he worked in a mortuary and nothing else. Or Barrett because he knew MJK and nothing else. Or some of the other suspects who might have slightly better claims. Yet people won't even consider a medically trained man with mental health and drug problems. A man who hated fallen women and wrote about disembowling them. A man with a religious mania who stalked the streets of London carrying a dissecting scalpel looking for a prostitute who broke his heart. Of course that kind of person could never be Jack.
I'm not claiming that Thompson was Jack. I'm saying that, after reading Richard Pattersons book, that he Could have been. Further research is needed. This research might rule him out completely. Who knows?
Very few suspects can be absolutely ruled out. I can think of 2. The rest are possibilities, no matter how slight. Surely we should keep open minds?

Regards
HS

Hello, Herlock.

While it's true I haven't purchased Patterson's book, I have read most of his threads about Thompson here on Casebook, and frankly, I'm just not sure many of the things you have listed above about Thompson are factual. Further research on my part is definitely needed, I know that.

One Patterson thread I recall well suggested that Thompson chose the dates he murdered women on due to a complicated system of his own devising based on the feast days of particular saints. (To Richard's credit, he did admit his logic was flawed when others pointed out he was mixing Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox saints' days.)

I did want to mention one thing about Catholic books, which I know from my own childhood. Anything written for a Roman Catholic audience underwent a sort of theological censorship, in which it was examined to make sure there was nothing in the content which could lead readers astray by going against the teachings of the Church. Approved books would have a Latin phrase on the back of the title page which meant, "Nothing obstructs" (or perhaps it was "objectionable", my Latin is not extensive.)

I mention this because Mr. Patterson asked in a previous post why Catholic books about Francis Thompson would frequently insist on mentioning how virtuous the poet was. I think, rather than covering up anything sinister, they are assuring the reader that he was a good Catholic even if he had lived a poverty-stricken life among the lowly-- something which Victorian custom looked down upon as meaning a person was out of favor with God (i.e., "sinful.")

[MrBarnett]

Except that he has no ties whatsoever to the case.

Hi Abby,

But we know he was in the East End at the time of the murders. (Don't we?)

And that he could look down to Miller's Court from the women's section of the PR Refuge, where he could only have stayed between the 5th - 8th of November, 1888. (Surely?)

And that he was still carrying the scalpel he had shaved with as a student - and kept it sharp! (He was so particular about his appearance at the time he would never have allowed his shaving blade to become blunt - duh!)

Plus, it's obvious that he was looking for his upmarket Chelsea prostitute in the doss-houses of Spitalfields. (Where else?)

And don't forget, Spitalfields had once been a Catholic place - with a hospital - and Thompson was a Catholic who once worked in a hospital. (I bet you're feeling a bit foolish now, eh?)

There's lots more along the same lines if you're not convinced.


Compare effete Thompson, who may not have even been in the East End in 1888, to Pearly Poll's East End born violent husband who ended up in a mental asylum and you realise how good a suspect he (Frank, not Foggy!) really was.



Gary

[MrBarnett]

Hi
I do find it surprising to say the least that people find nothing wrong with proposing Cross because he discovered a body and nothing else. Or Hutchinson because he said that he saw MJK and nothing else. Or Mann because he worked in a mortuary and nothing else. Or Barrett because he knew MJK and nothing else. Or some of the other suspects who might have slightly better claims. Yet people won't even consider a medically trained man with mental health and drug problems. A man who hated fallen women and wrote about disembowling them. A man with a religious mania who stalked the streets of London carrying a dissecting scalpel looking for a prostitute who broke his heart. Of course that kind of person could never be Jack.
I'm not claiming that Thompson was Jack. I'm saying that, after reading Richard Pattersons book, that he Could have been. Further research is needed. This research might rule him out completely. Who knows?
Very few suspects can be absolutely ruled out. I can think of 2. The rest are possibilities, no matter how slight. Surely we should keep open minds?

Regards
HS

Hi Michael,

One thing at a time.

How do you know Thompson was carrying a dissecting scalpel in 1888?

'Because it says so in Richard's book,' is not an acceptable answer.

Gary

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi
I do find it surprising to say the least that people find nothing wrong with proposing Cross because he discovered a body and nothing else. Or Hutchinson because he said that he saw MJK and nothing else. Or Mann because he worked in a mortuary and nothing else. Or Barrett because he knew MJK and nothing else. Or some of the other suspects who might have slightly better claims. Yet people won't even consider a medically trained man with mental health and drug problems. A man who hated fallen women and wrote about disembowling them. A man with a religious mania who stalked the streets of London carrying a dissecting scalpel looking for a prostitute who broke his heart. Of course that kind of person could never be Jack.
I'm not claiming that Thompson was Jack. I'm saying that, after reading Richard Pattersons book, that he Could have been. Further research is needed. This research might rule him out completely. Who knows?
Very few suspects can be absolutely ruled out. I can think of 2. The rest are possibilities, no matter how slight. Surely we should keep open minds?

Regards
HS

[Abby Normal]

Hi Richard

I don't understand why so many people appear to vehemently oppose Thompson as a possible JTR.
Compare him to Cross, Hutchinson, Mann and Barnett. Take away the one fact that they were around at the time and there's absolutely nothing left.

I even thought of the similarities with the myth of Matter's Dr Stanley. There you had a doctor, whose son, also a doctor caught a disease from a prostitute, so he searched Whitechapel for that prostitute killing others on the way.
With Thompson you have someone who trained as a doctor. He was ill (addiction) and he searched Whitechapel for a prostitute (possibly killing others). Who knows where these oral histories come from? Then you have stories of insane medical students. Some researchers have made greater 'leaps.' Even Druitt was called a doctor.
I hope that your research is ongoing. Facts emerge all the time so who knows?
Until then, surely Thompson should be considered as, at the very least, one of the most plausible candidates? I'm looking forward to reading the Walsh biography. Who knows, I may spot something.
Regards
HS

Except that he has no ties whatsoever to the case.

[harry]

Pcdunn,
The articles I mention are taken from a colonial newspaper,the Jamaica Gleaner.
While all refer to lectures given in Kingston,Jamaica,it seems the persons mentioned were held in high esteem,and their knowledge from a personell study of Francis Thompson.
W hether they wrote books or left evidence of their studies,I do not know.
I have not yet read every article concerning Thompson,nor tried to follow up on the persons mentioned.
Regards.

[Pcdunn]

Here are some more references to Francis Thompson.
Archie Lindo April 1939.
Marion Turner march 1924.
Margaret Stuart May 1930
Rev W.J.Turnball October 1916.

From the same source. Alice Meynell wrote the poem 'Çhrist in the universe'.

Hello, Harry, thanks for this-- but is there a journal title (or titles) you've left out? I don't know if you're referring to articles or books.

[harry]

Here are some more references to Francis Thompson.
Archie Lindo April 1939.
Marion Turner march 1924.
Margaret Stuart May 1930
Rev W.J.Turnball October 1916.

From the same source. Alice Meynell wrote the poem 'Çhrist in the universe'.

[Richard Patterson]

Thank you PCdunn for compiling this list of books about the Life of Francis Thompson. There is much to read but each book adds to the knowledge base. Here are a selection of books that I have sourced in my research. Some of these books are on Thompson and some are on the Ripper crimes. It is not an exhaustive list and some of the titles, that you have already listed, are included.


'The Poems of Francis Thompson'. London University Press. 1960. Reprint of 1913 edition. Beverly Taylor 'Francis Thompson'. 1987. G.K. Hall & Company. , Blunt. Wilfrid Scawen 'My Diaries. Being a Personal Narrative of Events 1888-1914'. Part Two 1900-1914. New Knopf. York. Alfred A. 1822. Uncut edition. , Boardman. Brigid M. 'Between Heaven and Charing Cross'. The Life of Francis Thompson.' 1988, Connolly. Rev. Terence L. S.J., Ph.D. 'Poems of Francis Thompson.' 1941 Appleton Century-Crofts, Inc. New York. , 'Francis Thompson, In His Paths.' The Bruce Publishing Company Milwaukee. , Darrell. Figgis. (1882-1925) 'Bye-Ways of Study.' 1918. Talbot Press. , Megroz. R.L 'Francis Thompson the Poet of Earth in Heaven, A Study in Poetic Mysticism and the Evolution of Love-Poetry.' 1927. Faber & Gwyer. , Meynell Everard. 'The Life of Francis Thompson' 1913 1st edition. & 1926 5th revised. Burns Oats & Washbourne. Ltd. , Meynell. Viola. 'Francis Thompson and Wilfrid Meynell'. 1952. London. Holis & Carter. , ‘Francis Thompson and Wilfrid Meynell’ A memoir by Viola Meynell. London Hollis & Carter, 1952. ,The 'Works of Francis Thompson'. Vols. I,II,III. London. First Impression, May 1913. , Thompson. Francis 'Selected Poems'. London. Burns and Oats. Ltd. , Thompson. Paul Van K.. 'Francis Thompson a Critical Biography''. 1973. Gordian Press, New York. , Walsh. John Evangelist 'Strange Harp, Strange Symphony'. The Life of Francis Thompson. 1987, Walsh. John Evangelist 'The Letters of Francis Thompson'. 1969. Hawthorn Books, Inc. , Jackson. Holbrook. 'The Eighteen Nineties A Review of Art and Ideas at The Close of the Nineteenth Century.' 1913. , Merry England Nov, 1888 edition. London. , Dew Walter. Chief Inspector. 'I Caught Crippen.' 1938. , Harrison Michael 'Clarence, Was He Jack the Ripper?' 1972 . W. H. Allen. 1972. , Leyton Elliott 'Compulsive Killers'. The Story of Modern Multiple Murder'. 1986. , Evans Stewart P. & Skinner Keith. 'Jack the Ripper. Letters From Hell' 2001. Sutton Publishing. , Fido. Martin 'The Crimes Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper'. Copyright Martin Fido. 1987. , Howells Martin & Skinner Keith. 'The Ripper Legacy. The Life & Death of Jack the Ripper.' 1987. Begg Paul, Fido Martin & Skinner Keith. 'The Jack the Ripper A-Z'. Headline. , Rumbelow Donald. 'The Complete Jack the Ripper.'. 1975. Penguin Books. The Revised Edition. Sphere Books. Ltd. , Sudgen. Phillip 'The Complete History of Jack the Ripper'. 1995. Robinson Publishing Limited. London. , Washington Mews Books. , Wilson. Colin & Odell Robin. 'Jack the Ripper' Summing Up and Verdict.' Bantam Press 1987 & Wilson. Colin & Seaman. Donald. 'The encyclopaedia of Modern murder.' 1989. Pan Books & Also Wilson and Seaman 'The Serial Killers. A Study in the Psychology of Violence.' 1990. Unwin. , The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Companion. Stewart P. Evans & Keith Skinner. Carroll & Graf Publishers, Inc New York, 2000. 'Altick. Richard D. 'Victorian Studies in Scarlet'. 1970. J. W.W. Norton & Company, Inc. , Farmer. David Hugh. 'The Oxford Dictionary of Saints.' Oxford University Press. Oxford. 1978. , FFinch. Michael 'G.K. Chesterton A Biography'. 1986. Harper and Row. Publishers. Inc. 10 East 53rd Street, Fishman. William J. 'The East End 1888'. 1988. Gerald Duckworth & Co. Ltd. , Heath-Stubbs John. 'The Darkling Plain'. Eyre & Spottiswoode. London. , Kuntiz. Stanley. J. 'British Authors of the Nineteenth Century'. 1936. H.W. Wilson & Company. , Lowndes Marie Belloc. 'The Lodger'. 1913. Methuen & Co. Ltd. First Four Square Edition reprints. December 1966. , Palmer. Alan. 'The East End'. 1989. John Murray. Ltd. , Microfiche of 1888. 'Times' also for August 31 dock fire. Also Australian 'Argus' 1888. Stowe John 'Survey of Westminster' mdxcviii, inc maps. , Bible Old and New Testaments. Various Internet Sites including 'The Ripper Casebook'. The Victorian State Library, La Trobe University Library, Melbourne Salvation Army Archives, The British Library, British National Art Library. , Moorehead Caroline ‘The Lost Treasures of Troy’. 1994. Phoenix Giants. London.

[Herlock Sholmes]

That was no easy task I imagine. Good stuff. That one piece of info that proves or disproves could be out there somewhere.

Regards

HS

[GUT]

You're welcome, of course, Gut. It was a lengthy project, but one I've been planning to do for some time.

Oh, by the way, a great site for finding online versions of older books that are out of copyright is Project Gutenberg. Could be a source for Thompson's writings.

Facts want to be free!

I love Gutenberg (they even named it after me....)

[Pcdunn]

Thanks for the last Dunny.

You're welcome, of course, Gut. It was a lengthy project, but one I've been planning to do for some time.

Oh, by the way, a great site for finding online versions of older books that are out of copyright is Project Gutenberg. Could be a source for Thompson's writings.

Facts want to be free!