Connections or random?

[MrBarnett]

Hello Gary

I found this..From 1865

http://www.victorianlondon.org/publi...3/pauper-7.htm


Phil

Thanks, Phil. I had seen that. It's the Bluegate Fields Tiger Bay, I believe.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Gary

I found this..From 1865

http://www.victorianlondon.org/publi...3/pauper-7.htm


Phil

[MrBarnett]

Stride visited a friend in Tiger Bay not long before her murder. Tiger Bay wasn't too far distant from Berner Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

I've found references to Berner Street being in a district 'formerly known as' Tiger Bay, to an associate of Stride's bring tracked down to a neighbourhood that was 'formerly known as' Tiger Bay and to a Mr Harris leaving his house in Tiger Bay (Brunswick Street) to see what was going on in Berner Street, but nothing to locate Liz herself there (other than on the night of her murder, if you count Berner Street as being in Tiger Bay).

There had been at least three Tiger Bays in London, though by 1888 they would seem to have lost their claws.

Brunswick Street, Everard Street, Henry Street and Frederick Street appear to have been the worst streets in the Tiger Bay which sat in the NW corner of STGITE, where it met Whitechapel. The heyday of its notoriety was the 1850s/60s. By 1891, Brunswick Street, which had been possibly the most Tigrish of all, was occupied almost exclusively by seemingly respectable East European Jews.

The most recent claimant to the title was Betts Street, where the Ratcliffe Highway Mission For Fallen Women had opened in February, 1888. That backed on to Princes Street, the location of Liz's Swedish Church. The last of the 35 'bad houses' in Betts Street were demolished ca 1887 to make way for the mission.

Then, of course, there was Bluegate Fields, straddling the STGITE and Shadwell border. That was also 'formerly known as' Tiger Bay, but had been tamed considerably by 1888.

So far I haven't been able to discover a functioning Tiger Bay in London in 1888. If anyone has any thoughts, I'd love to hear them.

(Apologies if this is somewhat off-topic.)
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....ighlight=tiger

Gary

[Phil Carter]

Hi Sam. You don't think Polly Nichols knew Frances Coles? They lived in the same house together. And Polly lived in the same house as Annie Chapman prior to her death. It was Polly's friends and housemates who first gave rise to 'Leather Apron', so whoever that poor schmuck really was, Polly would have known him by sight. As for Stride, she'd lived for years on the same street as Catherine Eddowes, which doesn't make them friends, but means they must have passed each other on the streets, working the streets, shopping, drinking in pubs, going to the showers, etc. And they both may have earned money cleaning in the Rothschild buildings.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Sorry. .but you have me stumped here.
What evidence have you that Stride "must" or Eddowes for that matter..either went to the same "showers" (I think you meant baths), "passed each other (whilst) working the streets"????, "shopping", "going to the pubs". ....?

Im sorry Tom..but your imagination is running riot here to fit whatever your intention is.

"Shopping"...wasn't anything like today. It cannot even be compared. .ESPECIALLY as these women were poorer than church mice.
"Bathing"??? Are you really serious? That cost money they needed for food and booze. They washed themselves with cold water from a tap somewhere.
As far as drinking in pubs is concerned.there was a veritable plethora of pubs..in all areas.
But the worst comment was that they MUST have passed each other "working the streets". This isnt 1988...they didnt "work the streets" at all. They hung around pubs..Hung around the dock aareas.That is IF...IF they were REGULAR prostitutes..of which there is no evidence of at all in the case of Eddowes and Stride.
Im sorry Tom. This time you have seriously got it wrong. I recommend a good re think.


Phil

[Phil Carter]

Not the more famous Tiger Bay in South Wales then Tom?


Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom,

What do you have in mind when you speak of 'Tiger Bay' in 1888?

Gary

Stride visited a friend in Tiger Bay not long before her murder. Tiger Bay wasn't too far distant from Berner Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[MrBarnett]

You weren't too far off, though. Stride was in Tiger Bay in the days before her death. Also in Hanbury Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

What do you have in mind when you speak of 'Tiger Bay' in 1888?

Gary

[Batman]

Sgt Thick was nowhere near Goulston Street and had nothing to do with the apron piece.
Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Okay thanks for that clarification.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that. So what about this same person happening to find the bloody apron piece? A coincidence?

What same person? Sgt Thick was nowhere near Goulston Street and had nothing to do with the apron piece. PC Albert Long found it. I have a long essay about Goulston Street in my upcoming book.

Debs, Feb. 29th it is! LOL. I'll be holding my breath.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Batman]

Hi Debs. Were those records destroyed in the war along with so much else?

Hi Batman. No, I don't suggest that a cop was involved in the murders. I suggest that Sgt. William Thick tried to fit up John Pizer for the murders at one point. I also point out that he had a relationship with the top lodging house keepers in the area. I think it's highly possible some of these men knew who the Ripper was and worked to protect him. Or protect something close to them. From what I can tell, they certainly didn't benefit from the murders themselves. A lawyer did write a letter expressing his opinion that William Thick was the Ripper, but I don't believe it and I don't believe he personall knew who the Ripper was.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks for that. So what about this same person happening to find the bloody apron piece? A coincidence?

[Debra A]

Hi Debs. Were those records destroyed in the war along with so much else?

I can't possibly say at this stage, Tom, but watch out for an announcement on the 29th February!

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Debs. Were those records destroyed in the war along with so much else?

Hi Batman. No, I don't suggest that a cop was involved in the murders. I suggest that Sgt. William Thick tried to fit up John Pizer for the murders at one point. I also point out that he had a relationship with the top lodging house keepers in the area. I think it's highly possible some of these men knew who the Ripper was and worked to protect him. Or protect something close to them. From what I can tell, they certainly didn't benefit from the murders themselves. A lawyer did write a letter expressing his opinion that William Thick was the Ripper, but I don't believe it and I don't believe he personall knew who the Ripper was.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Batman]

P.S. Re: Batman's question, there's little reason to believe an active cop was the Ripper. Or even a former cop. He may have been but there's no reason to suppose he was.

After reading your book I went and looked into the matter again because I was always of the opinion that LE involvement in these cases is just so rare and to rule it out. It turns out that there have been quite a few instances and so that opened that possibility for me. Your book seems to be suggesting though that if we follow the train of thought you present, that LE was involved or complicit in some way. Did I read into it right? If not you can correct me.

Thanks

[Debra A]

Nothing is definite, but when you have people living in the same house it's not fair to say there's no reason to suspect they may have known each other. It was reported in the press that Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly knew each other. That is of course not proof they did, but that report on top of their being neighbors and such tips the scales in that favor. Now, whether any of this has anything at all to do with their murders is entirely another matter.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

...

I agree, Tom. We also don't know for definite whether the women's paths may have crossed in earlier years or in places apart from their lodgings. Both Martha Tabram and Catherine Eddowes were using the workhouse at Mint St Southwark and Newington workhouse and casual ward around the same time in the late 1870's, as was Mary Ann Monk and other women with names familiar in this case. Newington workhouse is one of the few workhouses where the casual ward registers have survived, Perhaps the records of the Whitechapel, Mile End, SGE etc. casual wards, had they survived, might have revealed the women staying in the wards at the same times on occasion?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom

That doesn't necessarily mean that their paths would have crossed particularly often, assuming their tenure in those houses overlapped to any appreciable extent.

Nothing is definite, but when you have people living in the same house it's not fair to say there's no reason to suspect they may have known each other. It was reported in the press that Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly knew each other. That is of course not proof they did, but that report on top of their being neighbors and such tips the scales in that favor. Now, whether any of this has anything at all to do with their murders is entirely another matter.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. Re: Batman's question, there's little reason to believe an active cop was the Ripper. Or even a former cop. He may have been but there's no reason to suppose he was.