The Double Event

[Sam Flynn]

Triple murder, if you we include Sarah Brown. Does this reduce the likelihood of Stride & Eddowe's murders being connected or the reverse?

I'd say that it should at least give us pause. Also, taking into account the violent nature of those days, there were possibly other serious knife assaults which could have resulted in a death but which, for entirely providential reasons, didn't. Some of these may have happened on the same night, in approximately the same district, but by no means all of them would have ended up in the newspapers.

Given the comparatively "mild" injuries - sorry, injury - suffered by Liz Stride (mild, that is, compared to other canonical JTR victims), she might have ended up in the same category. By which I mean, it's not inconceivable that she could have survived had (a) the killer not have inflicted quite so "successful" a blow; and/or (b) Dymshitz had turned up a little earlier. If you're not particularly wedded to the "interruption" theory, and I'm not, the possibility that her killer had fled a few minutes earlier than Dymshitz's arrival is by no means out of the question.

[Sam Flynn]

I don't think throat cutting-or more specifically-murdered women by cut throat-was as common as you think. according to colin Roberts excellent research in the years before and after 88 there was a relatively low (about 10 give or take) women murdered by knife in London.

It's one thing to measure the official stats, but one has to take into account the non-injurious knife assaults, manslaughters or attempted murders, which may or may not have made the press. There's also the fact that, on occasion, some murders were classified as "manslaughter" or "accidents", perhaps inadvertently, but sometimes deliberately in order to keep a given police/coroner's district a better reputation than they really had.

[John G]

Murder by means of throat cutting was incredibly rare in the late nineteenth century: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=314649

Thus, considering the above statistics, there were fewer murders of females aged over 20 in 1885, by means of throat cuts, in the whole of England (50,000 square miles) than there were in area of about 1 square mile in 1888.

Regarding Sarah Brown, this murder had absolutely none of the hallmarks of Stride's murder, but all of the hallmarks of a much more common domestic murder. Thus, Brown was killed in Westminster (not Whitechapel) in her own home by her husband who, incidentally, quickly confessed by walking into a police station, informing the officer on duty, "I have killed my wife."

In stark contrast, Stride was murdered outside, in a dark passageway, adjacent to a club to which she had no known association. Moreover, there were no suspects and no witnesses to the murder-or it's immediate aftermath- which appeared to have been carried out with ruthless efficiency.

The simple fact is, whoever murdered Stride it was an exceptionally rare crime-at least outside of 1888 Whitechapel, of course!

[Abby Normal]

Murder by means of throat cutting was incredibly rare in the late nineteenth century: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=314649

Thus, considering the above statistics, there were fewer murders of females aged over 20 in 1885, by means of throat cuts, in the whole of England (50,000 square miles) than there were in area of about 1 square mile in 1888.

Regarding Sarah Brown, this murder had absolutely none of the hallmarks of Stride's murder, but all of the hallmarks of a much more common domestic murder. Thus, Brown was killed in Westminster (not Whitechapel) in her own home by her husband who, incidentally, quickly confessed by walking into a police station, informing the officer on duty, "I have killed my wife."

In stark contrast, Stride was murdered outside, in a dark passageway, adjacent to a club to which she had no known association. Moreover, there were no suspects and no witnesses to the murder-or it's immediate aftermath- which appeared to have been carried out with ruthless efficiency.

The simple fact is, whoever murdered Stride it was an exceptionallyy rare crime-at least outside of 1888 Whitechapel, of course!

exactly. sarah brown is a coincidence. stride and eddowes a pattern.

[Abby Normal]

It's one thing to measure the official stats, but one has to take into account the non-injurious knife assaults, manslaughters or attempted murders, which may or may not have made the press. There's also the fact that, on occasion, some murders were classified as "manslaughter" or "accidents", perhaps inadvertently, but sometimes deliberately in order to keep a given police/coroner's district a better reputation than they really had.

wow. your a slippery fish.

we were talking about murders.

[Sam Flynn]

wow. your a slippery fish.

we were talking about murders.

So am I, Abby. All I'm saying is that some assaults, muggings, heated arguments could easily have escalated into knife-murders but for the grace of God. There are several characteristics of Stride's murder that indicates that it might have been just such an event that went horribly wrong, and it's not inconceivable that it could have gone the other way. Neither is it unlikely that similar events occurred that might have culminated in murder if matters got out of hand. A lot of people carried knives back then, and it was a very violent time.

Nothing slippery about that at all.

[Sam Flynn]

stride and eddowes a pattern.

A moderately cut throat preceded by a violent struggle outside a noisy club, versus (apparently) a "coochie-coo" smooch outside a practicallly deserted Mitre Square followed by a savagely cut throat, disembowelment and nasty facial mutilations.

I don't see much of a pattern there, either in the killer's approach or in the outcome.

[Abby Normal]

So am I, Abby. All I'm saying is that some assaults, muggings, heated arguments could easily have escalated into knife-murders but for the grace of God. There are several characteristics of Stride's murder that indicates that it might have been just such an event that went horribly wrong, and it's not inconceivable that it could have gone the other way. Neither is it unlikely that similar events occurred that might have culminated in murder if matters got out of hand. A lot of people carried knives back then, and it was a very violent time.

Nothing slippery about that at all.

But we were talking about how rare murders were. And specifically murders of women by knife. That's it. They were rare.

[Abby Normal]

A moderately cut throat preceded by a violent struggle outside a noisy club, versus (apparently) a "coochie-coo" smooch outside a practicallly deserted Mitre Square followed by a savagely cut throat, disembowelment and nasty facial mutilations.

I don't see much of a pattern there, either in the killer's approach or in the outcome.

A moderately cut throat?!?
Sorry Sam, this is starting to sound a lot like your Ellen bury lttle scratch to the stomach argument.

[Abby Normal]

A moderately cut throat preceded by a violent struggle outside a noisy club, versus (apparently) a "coochie-coo" smooch outside a practicallly deserted Mitre Square followed by a savagely cut throat, disembowelment and nasty facial mutilations.

I don't see much of a pattern there, either in the killer's approach or in the outcome.

But Sarah brown was a known domestic far away. It has nothing to do with the ripper murders. That she was murdered on the night of the double event is a sheer coincidence.

Yes eddowes and stride is pattern.


They happened a few minutes walk and an hour apart from each other. Both had cut throats, same victimolgy, both unsolved, both murdered by cut throat.

Both were seen with a man with a peaked cap.

Any differences can be easily chalked up to circumstances. In this case because stride seemed to be reluctant to go into a secluded place as several witnesses saw her with the man with the peaked cap over the course of at least an hour. He lost his temper, and that is probably why she wound up with only the cut throat and no mutilation. And why eddowes wound up with both as the killers true motive, abdominal multinational and removal of organs was not satisfied.


Same victimology
Unsolved
Murder by cut throat
Hour apart
Close proximity
First victim not "finished"
Second victim "completed" and then some
Both victims being shmoozed before hand out on the street
Witnesses for both describe a similar man with a peaked cap

I would also add the anon church street sighting of the man in a peak cap wiping his hands about the same time in between the murders to show him seen en route.

Pattern.

[c.d.]

Stride's murderer does not seem to have been angry. I don't think it was the B.S. man. No argument was heard post B.S. man. Stride was not slapped around, no blows to the face. She was not stabbed anywhere on her body other than her throat. And of course those damn cachous. I don't see anger anywhere in that scenario rather a cool, calculated killer that caught her off guard.

c.d.

[c.d.]

"A moderately cut throat preceded by a violent struggle outside a noisy club..."

Hello Sam,

A "violent struggle"? Not according to Schwartz.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Stride's murderer does not seem to have been angry. I don't think it was the B.S. man. No argument was heard post B.S. man. Stride was not slapped around, no blows to the face. She was not stabbed anywhere on her body other than her throat. And of course those damn cachous. I don't see anger anywhere in that scenario rather a cool, calculated killer that caught her off guard.

c.d.

Peaked cap

[c.d.]

Do you care to elaborate there, Abby?

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Do you care to elaborate there, Abby?

c.d.

Marshall pc smith Schwartz, church street sighting, Lawende. All describe a man wearing a peaked cap.

It's the final straw for me that connects stride and eddowes murder and that bs man was not only strides killer but also the ripper.