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  • A possibility for the Seaside Home?

    I am wondering if the Seaside home mentioned by Swanson in his famous marginalia could be a reference to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock St. Both built, seven years apart to provide shelter and food for seamen, both connected and commissioned, I believe by the the same philanthropists.
    The location is less than a mile from Mitre Sq and Aldgate [Butchers row suspect?], in City Police territory [watched by City Police, so in effect their suspect for Eddowes murder] and less than a mile from Lawende's workplace St Mary Axe. If indeed Lawende was the witness.
    It seems strange to me that you would take a witness and a suspect miles [Brighton], just to confront the witness with the suspect, why not do that in London?. Doesn't sound much like a proper ID and could their actually be one with Kosminski's deteriorating mental condition?
    Bearing in mind that Lawende said that the man he sighted had the appearance of a sailor. What better place to put a mentally unstable suspect who may have been a sailor in front of a witness than an asylum for sailors. Now I believe not everybody or indeed probably most people who resided there suffered from mental illness but it still gives the ID an air of credibility to it in case there was a court case. In fact Lawende could have been confronted with a few seamen, one at a time but it was Kosminski he recognised. He certainly didn't know he was a Jew at the time [when he learned he was a fellow Jew, he declined to give evidence] and probably not a sailor.
    Although I have no proof of this and just a few suggestions it is tempting. A suspect who had the appearance of a sailor but wasn't, yet picked out by a witness at a Sailors home after perhaps looking at a few other seamen beforehand. Even if Lawende says he wasn't positive and reminded the Police that he only had a cursory glance at the murderer it might have hardened the thoughts of Anderson and maybe Swanson that Kosminski was their man. Particularly after he said Sadler wasn't the man not long after, even though he could be seen as a reasonable suspect. He could even have been used at the Sadler ID to test his veracity. Pick out Sadler as well and the case against Kosminski gets watered down, but he didn't.
    Regards Darryl

  • #2
    Interesting but, unless Swanson got his wires crossed, how does an inland establishment tens of miles from the sea get to be called a "seaside" home?
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
      Interesting but, unless Swanson got his wires crossed, how does an inland establishment tens of miles from the sea get to be called a "seaside" home?
      Hi Sam I think it was Stewart Evans and Don Rumbelow in their joint book Scotland yard investigates who first suggested that when he was writing the marginalia at least 22 years after the murders that he may have misremembered the seaside home for seamans home . Where I differ is in the confusion about him misremembering the Sadler ID for one with Kosminski.
      In the marginalia he says - at the seaside home, not our seaside home nor the police's seaside home. I simply fail to understand why the police would take a witness and a suspect miles to Brighton for an ID. It could not have been an ID parade because Kosminski's mind was deteriorating then and this would have been next to impossible.
      So it must have been a confrontation. But why not do that in London? It was a good 18 months since the last ripper scare [Alice Mackenzie], so it wasn't exactly at the height of the murders, the furore would have well died down by then. Not only that but when Francis was murdered a few days after Kosminski had been incarcerated and the scare was back in full swing, the witness was sent to ID Sadler at his seamans mission. Why not take the witness and suspect miles away then?
      One last thought Anderson wrote in his autobiography that the witness made the ID after the suspect was safely caged in an asylum, completely at odds with Swanson. He wasn't caged, but is Anderson thinking of the Destitute Sailors' Asylum where, if the ID did happen there Kosminski would almost certainly have been restrained.
      Regards Darryl
      Last edited by Darryl Kenyon; 08-07-2019, 08:16 AM.

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      • #4
        It's perhaps worth noting that the Destitute Sailors' Asylum doesn't appear to have been an insane asylum, but seems to have used the word "asylum" in the broader sense of a place of shelter or refuge. There's a brief but interesting article on Drew Gray's blog:

        https://thepolicemagistrate.blog/tag...sailors-asylum

        Interesting to see that it was formerly known as the "Sailors' Home".
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

        Comment


        • #5
          Interesting stuff Darryl. I have to admit that one of the many questions that has perplexed and niggled at me in this case over the years is the one that you’ve mentioned. Why the hell would they have taken their suspect, under restraint, to the coast for an identification? It really makes no sense to me on the face of it. The Evans/Rumbelow suggestion for how the confusion might have occurred seems eminently plausible imo. Far more likely that they would have wanted their suspect safely to hand. Would they have expected their witness to take a whole day off work for a trip to the coast? Unless they promised the suspect an ice cream, a donkey ride and a paddle in the sea I can see no reason for it
          Regards

          Herlock






          "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            Interesting stuff Darryl. I have to admit that one of the many questions that has perplexed and niggled at me in this case over the years is the one that you’ve mentioned. Why the hell would they have taken their suspect, under restraint, to the coast for an identification? It really makes no sense to me on the face of it. The Evans/Rumbelow suggestion for how the confusion might have occurred seems eminently plausible imo. Far more likely that they would have wanted their suspect safely to hand. Would they have expected their witness to take a whole day off work for a trip to the coast? Unless they promised the suspect an ice cream, a donkey ride and a paddle in the sea I can see no reason for it
            Hi DK and HS
            agree. very interesting and you very well may be right.

            but why is this in the faq section? I wish it could me moved to one of the below pertinent section-hopefully more people will see and chime in, because this is intriguing possibility.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

              Hi DK and HS
              agree. very interesting and you very well may be right.

              but why is this in the faq section? I wish it could me moved to one of the below pertinent section-hopefully more people will see and chime in, because this is intriguing possibility.
              I did wonder why this thread was in the section?

              Darryl, couldn’t you request that admin move this to one of the main threads. It’s a worthwhile topic.
              Regards

              Herlock






              "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                I did wonder why this thread was in the section?

                Darryl, couldn’t you request that admin move this to one of the main threads. It’s a worthwhile topic.
                Hi Herlock I think I have only ever started one thread before so I think I made a bit of a mess of it How could I move it please
                Regards Darryl

                Comment


                • #9
                  I do believe an ID took place involving Kosminski and probably Lawenede the problem is as I have mentioned I simply cannot believe the police took a suspect under restraint and with difficulty all the way, sixty odd miles to Brighton. And that is not to mention taking the witness there and all it would cost etc
                  I know it has been suggested that it was done to escape the hotbed of London. But what we must remember is the ID probably took place not long before Kosminski was sent to Colney Hatch. So sometime at the end of January, beginning of February 1891 would fit neatly. Now the last JTR scare was in July 1889 [Alice], or perhaps Sep 89 with the Pinchen st torso. I doubt by early 91 Whitechapel was still a hotbed of frantic journalists trying to follow every single slight clue on the ripper, the furore would have died down. We also have Sadler being put on an ID not long later after the murder of Francis, so why was that done in the middle of the metropolis if the other one wasn't? It doesn't make sense.
                  The other argument about the Brighton seaside home is that it was common knowledge that the police convalescent home in Brighton was known as that?
                  Do we have evidence for this? But even if we do Swanson says he had been identified at the seaside home, not our or the police's seaside home.
                  Swanson probably wrote his marginalia not long after 1910, 22 years after the murders. He probably wrote it without the benefit of notes or files from the case in front of him, and relied solely on memory. If he didn't he wouldn't have made the mistake that after the ID no other murder of this kind took place in London, forgetting that Francis was murdered a few days after Kosminski was incarcerated not before.
                  Seaside home, Seamans home, Sailors home. Could he have written it down wrong when he was, in effect just making jottings? I think he could have.
                  Regards Darryl

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post

                    Hi Herlock I think I have only ever started one thread before so I think I made a bit of a mess of it How could I move it please
                    Regards Darryl
                    Hi Darryl,

                    Im sure that only Admin can move a thread Darryl. I don’t know if a pm to admin would do the trick? I think you can contact admin via email but I’m unsure how.

                    I’d bet that Sam would know.
                    Regards

                    Herlock






                    "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      There used to be a Sailors place along commercial road up towards poplar way I remember passing it in 70s it was on the left with a big sign. Does anyone know what it was called?

                      Pat....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                        I do believe an ID took place involving Kosminski and probably Lawenede the problem is as I have mentioned I simply cannot believe the police took a suspect under restraint and with difficulty all the way, sixty odd miles to Brighton. And that is not to mention taking the witness there and all it would cost etc
                        I know it has been suggested that it was done to escape the hotbed of London. But what we must remember is the ID probably took place not long before Kosminski was sent to Colney Hatch. So sometime at the end of January, beginning of February 1891 would fit neatly. Now the last JTR scare was in July 1889 [Alice], or perhaps Sep 89 with the Pinchen st torso. I doubt by early 91 Whitechapel was still a hotbed of frantic journalists trying to follow every single slight clue on the ripper, the furore would have died down. We also have Sadler being put on an ID not long later after the murder of Francis, so why was that done in the middle of the metropolis if the other one wasn't? It doesn't make sense.
                        The other argument about the Brighton seaside home is that it was common knowledge that the police convalescent home in Brighton was known as that?
                        Do we have evidence for this? But even if we do Swanson says he had been identified at the seaside home, not our or the police's seaside home.
                        Swanson probably wrote his marginalia not long after 1910, 22 years after the murders. He probably wrote it without the benefit of notes or files from the case in front of him, and relied solely on memory. If he didn't he wouldn't have made the mistake that after the ID no other murder of this kind took place in London, forgetting that Francis was murdered a few days after Kosminski was incarcerated not before.
                        Seaside home, Seamans home, Sailors home. Could he have written it down wrong when he was, in effect just making jottings? I think he could have.
                        Regards Darryl
                        There is one major nagging doubt about Kosminski and the seaside home.

                        The only two officers who make mention of this so called suspect Kosminski were MM and Swanson, yet neither mention him by his full name, surely such a prime suspect supposedly identified as being the ripper warrants being fully identified, and coincidentally, these are the only two officers out of all the police officers involved in the investigation over the years to mention this suspect Kosminski.

                        It should also be noted that MM was Swansons immediate superior, yet he makes no mention of any such ID procedure in his memo.

                        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                          I do believe an ID took place involving Kosminski and probably Lawenede the problem is as I have mentioned I simply cannot believe the police took a suspect under restraint and with difficulty all the way, sixty odd miles to Brighton. And that is not to mention taking the witness there and all it would cost etc
                          I know it has been suggested that it was done to escape the hotbed of London. But what we must remember is the ID probably took place not long before Kosminski was sent to Colney Hatch. So sometime at the end of January, beginning of February 1891 would fit neatly. Now the last JTR scare was in July 1889 [Alice], or perhaps Sep 89 with the Pinchen st torso. I doubt by early 91 Whitechapel was still a hotbed of frantic journalists trying to follow every single slight clue on the ripper, the furore would have died down. We also have Sadler being put on an ID not long later after the murder of Francis, so why was that done in the middle of the metropolis if the other one wasn't? It doesn't make sense.
                          The other argument about the Brighton seaside home is that it was common knowledge that the police convalescent home in Brighton was known as that?
                          Do we have evidence for this? But even if we do Swanson says he had been identified at the seaside home, not our or the police's seaside home.
                          Swanson probably wrote his marginalia not long after 1910, 22 years after the murders. He probably wrote it without the benefit of notes or files from the case in front of him, and relied solely on memory. If he didn't he wouldn't have made the mistake that after the ID no other murder of this kind took place in London, forgetting that Francis was murdered a few days after Kosminski was incarcerated not before.
                          Seaside home, Seamans home, Sailors home. Could he have written it down wrong when he was, in effect just making jottings? I think he could have.
                          Regards Darryl
                          yes i like it

                          DK any idea why a police id of a suspect would tale place here though? does it have any connection to the police, or an asylum for that matter?
                          Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-09-2019, 10:33 PM.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            What about the resurfacing of the panic in 1896 with a letter quoting the GSG?
                            Michael Richards

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              What about the resurfacing of the panic in 1896 with a letter quoting the GSG?
                              Anyone want to address this in connection with the claims that a Seaside ID answers the "Jack" question a few years before 1896? If an ID took place it obviously didn't answer anything satisfactorily....more police were added to the streets again after the 1896 letter, and they had people look at the handwriting. Jack The Ripper crimes were never solved, any Seaside "ID" cannot have been the answer, and as late as 1910 people like Abberline still claimed that no-one knew who Jack was.
                              Michael Richards

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