Israel Schwartz in 1901

[Jimi]

hi all

During census research, myself and TJI were conducting, we came across what we believe is a likely candidate for Israel Schwartz living in London in 1901.

If I may start by posting his 1891 census details

In 1891 at 22 Great Samuel Street lived -:

Isral Schwartz Head 27 yo Tailor's Presser Born in Poland.
Eva Schwartz Wife 27yo Born in Poland
Dina E Schwartz Dtr 6 yo Scholar Born in Poland.
Louis schawartz son 6mts Born in St George's East London


In 1901 at 21 Jubilee Street, Stepney lived -:

Israel Schwartz Head 36yo Provisions dealer (s.e) Born in Russia
Esther Schwartz (Eva) Wife 36yo Born in Russia
Esther Schwartz (Dinah E) Dtr 16yo Dress maker Born in Russia
Louis Schwartz Son 12yo Scholar St George's East London
Daniel Schwartz Son 6yo Scholar St George's East London
Edward Schwartz Son 3yo St George's east London

Our main thinking on the two census reports is the similarity between the pronunciation of Eva and Esther. In 1901 Dinah E becomes Esther possibly taking the same name as her mother.

We also wonder if the question "Where are you from?" sort, resulted in the answer "Poland." Did the Schwartz's travel from Russia to Poland and through an interprteter their last place of residence (Poland) became their answer.

However what we do find puzzling is the rise from being a Tailor's Presser to a self employed Provision's dealer. How did a man with Schwartz's background find the money in 10 years to rise so quickly?

What do you think?

Keep well
JIMI

[The Good Michael]

Jimi,

I think your assessment must be accurate. I can't see any flies in the ointment.

Good work!

Mike

[Chris]

During census research, myself and TJI were conducting, we came across what we believe is a likely candidate for Israel Schwartz living in London in 1901.

This Israel Schwartz has been researched in some depth by Gavin Bromley. There is more information in his dissertation, "Mrs Kuer's Lodger", here:

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kuer.html

It's worth bearing in mind that Poland was effectively under Russian rule at this time, which explains why the places of birth of so many people alternate between "Russia" and "Poland" in the censuses.

[Celesta]

Do I have faulty information? Or did I misinterpret what was said here? I thought Israel was Hungarian. I just read about him this morning, in Tully, and he is described as Hungarian.

[adamkle]

Do I have faulty information? Or did I misinterpret what was said here? I thought Israel was Hungarian. I just read about him this morning, in Tully, and he is described as Hungarian.

He discribed himself as Hungarian, but what could that mean? Maybe he just came from Hungary?
Let's think.
Poland was divided by Russia, Prussia and Austria.
Such regions, as f.e. Galicia was torn by Russia and Austria.
Someone could born in Russian Galicia and then moved to Austrian Galicia and even to Hungarian Budapest, which also was a part of Austria (or Austria-Hungary, since 1867).
So a Pole from Galicia, living in Budapest, could easily say: "Well, I'm Hungarian!"

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Or else it was an error due to language difficulties, and what he really was saying was that he was 'hungry'.

In any case, interesting research, Jimi, although I admit that the absence of the Hungarian detail puzzled me as well. But there could of course be explanations for it.

All the best

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi, Celesta and all,

Like you I am scratching my head. It says in books that he was Hungarian. But it was an exclusive to the Star Newspaper. Here is a quote from the research essay by Mr. Bromley linked above.

Schwartz’s nationality

Schwartz’s nationality is only mentioned in the Star reports and he was stated to be Hungarian. There is no mention of his nationality in any of the police or Home Office references. He is merely referred to as a ‘foreigner’. No census records exist for an Israel Schwartz born in Hungary. The records found for an Israel Schwartz, if they relate to the same man, indicate that he was Polish or Russian

---

Gavin also went through a hypothetical exercise to see it Schwartz was - a murderer, in the end not finding any proof that he was, or even any good reason to believe it.

Roy

[Jimi]

Israel Schwartz in 1901

Hi All
Hi Chris
Thanks for the link. Don`t know how we missed that, all i can say is that this is Ripperland after all. thanks for that anyway.
On the Hungary/Poland/Russia question, while i have not done a massive amount of census work i have done enough to realise this sort of thing while not everyday is not rare.
Which brings me to the next puzzle.
Does anybody have any input into how Israel Schwartz can learn the English language, raise a family and find the money to buy a grocers shop. All in 10 years. I`ve been trying for over 50 years and i ain`t got nowhere near it!
Please any input would be useful
Keep Well
Jimi

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Damned if I know, Jimi, because he sure as heck couldn't speak any English in 1888.

Well, I suppose it's possible learn the language to some extent in 10 years time, of course. The question would rather be why, when he rarely appears to have bothered about it before 1888, unless he was newly immigrated at that time.

All the best

[Jimi]

Israel schwartz in 1901

Hi All
Hi Glen
I couldn`t agree more about the language, Glen, but don`t you think that in that area of Whitechapel, at that time, speaking Russian/Hebrew/Polish might not have been that much of a problem for him?
His jobs over that 10 year period that i have seen are a Tailors presser, and a Journeyman Tailor. So where did he get the money from to buy a grocers. When he also had a wife and 4 children to provide for up to buying the grocers.
Just doesn`t sit right.
Or am i just reading to much into it.
Keep Well
jimi

[Chris]

Which brings me to the next puzzle.
Does anybody have any input into how Israel Schwartz can learn the English language, raise a family and find the money to buy a grocers shop. All in 10 years. I`ve been trying for over 50 years and i ain`t got nowhere near it!

I think it's more likely he would have rented the premises, which wouldn't have required a big capital outlay.

I'm not sure what evidence there is about his knowledge of English, except that clearly he could sign his name by 1891. That suggests to me that he'd probably learned a reasonable amount of English by then. If he was the same Israel Schwartz who couldn't speak English in late 1888, I assume that means he had arrived in the country quite recently.

[adamkle]

Helo Jimi,

I'm not specialist on Israel Schwartz, so I don't know if it will help you.
Searching through database on http://www.jewishgen.org/jri-pl/jriplweb.htm
I found:
Israel M. Schwarz, born 1863, son of Anczel and Beile.
These data came from Tarnopol Voivodship in Galicia, which is ideal because:
- Tarnopol city was Polish until 1772,
- then it became Austrian (and later part of Austria-Hungary),
- now it's Ukrainian. The Ukrainian and Russian influences were always strong there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnopol

Kind regards,
Adam

[tji]

Hi Adam

Thanks for taking the time to look that up!

It does clear up the confusion we had with regards to the difference in countries.

Your post does indeed show that it is logical that might have been confusion if they kept changing the regions there!!!!

TJI

[Jimi]

Israel Schwartz in 1901

Hi All
Hi Adam
Thanks for taking the time to find that link. It does look like a possble hit on his parents, now to see if they entered the country.Thanks a lot.

Hi Chris
Do you know i never thought about him renting premises, and i use to rent a grocers type shop myself! DDOOHH!
However he would still have had to find the money to buy the previous owners stockholding, the rent would have been at least a month in advance and there would have been a payment for fixtures and fittings and goodwill.
I don`t know how much this would have been in victorian times in Whitechapel, but i don`t anticipate it being a small sum.
Keep Well
jimi

[Celesta]

Adam, Roy, Glenn, and Jimi,

Good show, Adam, and thank you! A rose is a rose? Maybe not. I didn't think about Austro-Hungary and the political situations in that part of Europe. I should have, since that is the reason for such a large migration of Jewish folk and others out of the region. For a long time, I thought he was Polish.

Thanks, All.