When Exactly Did Liz Scream?

[c.d.]

For some reason, I had always assumed that, according to Schwartz, Liz screamed after being thrown to the ground. In that scenario, the three screams which, again per Schwartz, were not very loud never made a lot of sense. But I just reread the home office file and it seems rather ambiguous as to when she screamed. Does it make more sense that she screamed three times while the B.S. man was pulling her? Certainly if he was hurting her arm to some degree that would seem to follow.

Any thoughts?

[Cogidubnus]

Possibly if she was pulled down/round by the tightened scarf then maybe at that stage...might explain why the screams weren't loud...might also explain the the "sound of a quarrel" which in the Star version made Schwartz pause and look back...

The Doctor was a little noncommital when asked the question re the scarf at the Inquest.

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

I should have listed the section from the report the first time but here it is.

"He tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her round and threw her down on the footway and the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly."

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi cd

Yes...do you suppose that when he threw her to the ground he was stooped over her and still had his grip on the scarf?

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

Hello Dave,

I think if he had been pulling her by the scarf rather than by the arm, that would have been noted by Schwartz and the police would have been very careful in their questioning to make sure they understood the translation.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi cd

Depends I suppose exactly how detailed a look he got...he does mention in the Star account that he "saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage"

This could explain perhaps some of the bruising described at the Inquest...but I wonder if Schwartz, in something of a panic and peering back in the semi dark, his view partially obstructed by BS man actually saw a grip on the scarf rather than her shoulder...who knows exactly what was in his original statement?

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

Hi Dave,

If the B.S. man had her by the scarf and was in effect choking her, you would expect that her natural reaction would be to get her hand up to her throat and try to pull the scarf away. In this scenario, the cachous would again show their resiliency to being scattered. Possible, but doesn't seem probable.

c.d.

[Cogidubnus]

Hello again cd

Yes that's a very good point

According to the Times Inquest accounts it was the left hand that was extended and partly closed around the cachous and the right hand which according to Blackwell was "smeared inside and out with blood"...Bagster Phillips only mentions blood clotted on the back of that hand...

Interestingly in the Times accounts it is Bagster Phillips who takes the packet of cachous from Strides hand and gives them to Doctor Blackwell, noting as he does so that "a number of these were in the gutter"...so perhaps the cachous are not quite as "resilient" as we've been thinking!

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

pain

Hello CD. Thanks for starting this thread.

I think Swanson is working with the police report. Their language seems to indicate she screamed when thrown.

If she had screamed when being pulled, and it was due to pain, would she not have screamed loudly--involuntarily?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

"You're a knotty boy."

Hello Dave.

"do you suppose that when he threw her to the ground he was stooped over her and still had his grip on the scarf?"

If so, would not the scarf's knot be tight and dead centred, rather than to the left?

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Dave,

It was actually one of the doctors who admitted that he had spilled the cachous.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

scarf

Hello CD.

"If the B.S. man had her by the scarf and was in effect choking her, you would expect that her natural reaction would be to get her hand up to her throat and try to pull the scarf away."

Not sure how much "choking" was done by the scarf. It could, however, throw her off balance.

And, yes, her hands would grip.

cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks for starting this thread.

I think Swanson is working with the police report. Their language seems to indicate she screamed when thrown.

If she had screamed when being pulled, and it was due to pain, would she not have screamed loudly--involuntarily?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

It seems we have three possibilities:

1. She screams after hitting the ground;

2. She screams as she is being thrown;

3. She screams as she is being pulled. As you suggest, if she was in pain, you would expect it to be a loud scream. But the three screams don't seem to jive with one or two.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

resilient

Hello Dave.

"perhaps the cachous are not quite as "resilient" as we've been thinking!"

Well, they certainly fell when the doctor tried to prise them loose--but NOT when Liz fell.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

subtle details

Hello CD. Thanks.

Not sure why one could not scream three times after falling--whatever a non-loud scream is.

Of course, there are many subtle details which do not jibe here. And that is another desideratum for my thinking the story was made up.

Cheers.
LC