How Would Jack the Ripper Have Reacted?

[curious]

Something weird happened when Liz Stride was killed. Those darn Cachous have told us that for 124 years.

From what research I have done (and it is precious little so knowledgeable, well-studied people here are especially invited) I think something happened with Liz's heart.

Here's why:

Quoting Dr. Bagster Phillips: Both lungs were unusually pale. The heart was small; left ventricle firmly contracted, right less so. Right ventricle full of dark clot; left absolutely empty.

Phillips does go on to say that the cut throat was what killed her.

However:

http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Patients/Health-Conditions/Pulmonary-Hypertension.aspx

states that:

The right ventricle is what pumps blood to the lungs.

The right side of the heart is the weak side since the distance the blood has to travel is so much shorter -- just to the lungs while the left ventricle pumps to the entire body.

So, Elizabeth Stride's right ventricle was full of clotted blood and she had pale lungs.

That makes sense. Her lungs quit getting blood.

Her left ventricle, which pumped blood to the rest of her body (think neck), was "absolutely empty" of blood and "firmly contracted".

Other research at http://www.montana.edu/craigs/How%20...rt%20Works.htm

and some other sites I can't re-find right now say:

"Then the Ventricles contract together to propel blood out of the heart."

So, since the bottom chambers contract at the same time, both ventricles should have been empty (or full), not one empty and the other full.

The blood remaining in the right ventricle would account for the pale lungs, which makes me think she stopped breathing? would that be right?

Does that mean that she stopped breathing before her heart stopped beating to pump the blood from the rest of her body?

This does not make total sense for there was about a pound of clotted blood near her body and if her lungs shut down, then the left side of the heart would have stopped receiving blood to pump?

Anyway, something weird happened, those clutched Cachous and the unmatching ventricles seem to say that.

So, my question is: If something happened with Liz (say she quit breathing and dropped like a dead weight in her killer's arms) how would the person we think of as JtR have been likely to react?

Do we know enough about serial killers to know he would have continued if the victim was already "gone"?

I read "Bloodstains" about Dr. H.H. Holmes. Apparently Holmes would cut necks twice. The first time was a less severe cut in order for the victim to know she/he was going to die so Holmes could watch the expression in their eyes -- the terror, then the pleading. The second slash was actually for the kill.

But if a victim dropping dead or in a dead faint deprived the killer of the "fun" would he abort the rest of the ritual? Or would something strange happening -- like a victim just dropping -- spook a killer enough to run?

Could this explain the condition of Liz's body and make her more likely a victim of "Jack"?

curious

[Phil H]

An interesting thought.

Killed by sheer terror do you think?

Phil H

[curious]

Hi, Phil,
I'm not sure what to think. But we do know people were walking in terror that fall. Liz's body was frail in some areas, so perhaps her heart was weak as well.

Of course there is some mention of her being particularly pale faced as well.

Just wondering how a mighty killer would react if something went awry.

curious

[Rubyretro]

Well, Curious...don't you think that murdering someone might never go exactly
according to the killer's fantasies ?

I mean the the person being murdered is likely to react in a completely unpredictable way (even to themselves, this being the first time that they have ever been murdered).

Liz might well have had a heart attack from experiencing one of the most stressful situations that a human being could live through. It wouldn't surprise me.

I don't think that it would spook Jack. He wasn't a 'domestic' killer, or some one involved in a street fight, or something...it would probably have been quite convenient for him..

[Addy]

Hi all,

I always understood JtR strangled his victims before slicing their throats. So that would explain it.

I am a biologist and as such can tell you that indeed the "weaker" side of the heart, the right side, pumps blood to the lungs. The left side pumps it through the rest of the body (via the aorta). Both atria and both ventricles contract at the same time.

With that in mind, I would say that:
- JtR strangles Liz Stride
- When she falls down he slits her throat
- blood starts to flow out: the more blood she loses, the harder the heart has to contract to push blood to the brains (your body will always try to keep oxygen going to the brain.)
- Blood is drained from all organs (probably the other organs would be paler than usual as well)
- in the end, the heart gives a final "big squeeze" to get blood to the brain => the left ventricle is completely contracted
- as much blood as possible has been drained from the lungs: the right ventricle is quit full, in fact so full it is not all pumped out
- the heart stops and the blood that is left over in the right ventricle clots before the autopsy

Just my best guess, but it would seem logical to me

Greetings,

Addy

[Rubyretro]

Thank you , Addy...that explains it clearly.

[Addy]

Thnx

Addy

[Wickerman]

Hi all,

I always understood JtR strangled his victims before slicing their throats. So that would explain it.

[...]

With that in mind, I would say that:
- JtR strangles Liz Stride
- When she falls down he slits her throat
.
.

This has been the source of much debate.
It is bewildering that neither Blackwell, Johnston nor Phillips noticed any marks on her neck or face consistent with strangulation or suffocation.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

yup

Hello Jon.

"It is bewildering that neither Blackwell, Johnston nor Phillips noticed any marks on her neck or face consistent with strangulation or suffocation."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

I don't think that it would spook Jack. He wasn't a 'domestic' killer, or some one involved in a street fight, or something...it would probably have been quite convenient for him..

Hi, Ruby,
Thanks for your reply.

I do agree that any killer will most likely never have a murder go perfectly.

So you would not expect that the victim just dropping would keep "Jack" from mutilating? If he killed to mutilate, then she had just helped him out and he was ready to move on to the good stuff quicker?

There is another thread ongoing about whether "Jack" was interrupted, so thinking about that led to this thread.

Thanks,

curious

[curious]

Hi all,


- in the end, the heart gives a final "big squeeze" to get blood to the brain => the left ventricle is completely contracted
- as much blood as possible has been drained from the lungs: the right ventricle is quit full, in fact so full it is not all pumped out
- the heart stops and the blood that is left over in the right ventricle clots before the autopsy

Just my best guess, but it would seem logical to me

Greetings,

Addy

Thanks, Addy,

Like you, I see the victims being strangled first -- into unconsciousness or nearly -- then their throats cut.

While Polly and Annie appear to have been strangled by hands, Liz appears to have been strangled by use of her scarf (perhaps) a sudden jerk backward.

That was where I first thought something might have occurred with her heart.

So you believe that the right side and the left side of the heart continued to function together until the very end?

Would it be possible for the right to have slowed down? Would that mean that oxygenated blood would be syphoned harder from the lungs as the body struggled for oxygen? Would that leave the lungs particularly pale?

Is that possible for the body to do?

Sorry for all the questions, but very glad you replied and hope you have some time to help me understand.

curious

[curious]

Hello Jon.

"It is bewildering that neither Blackwell, Johnston nor Phillips noticed any marks on her neck or face consistent with strangulation or suffocation."

Precisely.

Cheers.
LC

Another thing I find bewildering is that Dr. Phillips made a point of saying "Both lungs were unusually pale. "

He had already autopsied other bodies with cut throats. Why were Liz's lungs unusually pale?

I think there's something here we don't understand.

curious

[lynn cates]

lung disease

Hello Velma. Thanks.

Yes, difficult to understand. Perhaps she had some disease? She had some adhesions--not sure how old.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks.

Yes, difficult to understand. Perhaps she had some disease? She had some adhesions--not sure how old.

Cheers.
LC

would being anemic produce that result?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi all,

I've said for years that something as simple as Stride fainting makes perfect sense. But there would never be a way to prove it. I would have to say that her dying of a heart attack is far less likely, as that would be more medically obvious. And yes, it's very possible to choke someone to unconsciousness without leaving bruises on their neck. It would depend on the health, muscle mass, strength, and sobriety of the victim.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott