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Should We Consider John Kelly As A Suspect?

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  • Should We Consider John Kelly As A Suspect?

    The police very quickly came to the conclusion that Kelly was not implicated in the Eddowes murder, but I am not entirely sure why. Frederick Wilkinson, of Cooney's Lodging House claimed that Kelly went to bed at 10pm and did not go out again that night. He's not a convincing witness though. In his inquest testimony he contradicts himself:

    Mr Crawford: "Did anyone come to your lodging-house on the Sunday morning between 1 and 2 o'clock and take a bed; a stranger?"

    Witness: "I had no stranger there between 1 and 2".

    Mr Crawford: Can you tell me who entered your lodging-house on Sunday morning between 1 and 2?"

    Witness: "Two detectives came and asked if I had any female out".

    Mr Crawford; "Did anyone come in before that, between 1 and 2, whom you did not recognise, and take a bed?"

    Witness: "I cannot remember. I can refer to my book and tell you whether any stranger was there".

    He gives diametrically opposed answers to what is essentially the same question. One minute he insists that he had no stranger there between 1 and 2am, the next he can't remember and needs to refer to his book!

    I doubt if the detectives were enquiring about Eddowes, so presumably the concern was to identify Stride, but even her body wasn't discovered until 1am, so it was probably nearer 2 than 1 when the detectives arrived. There is less certainty in Wilkinson's account than he is claiming, and I think there has to be a possibility that he was asleep for part of the time.

    We are told that Kelly and Eddowes had been hop-picking in Kent for some weeks, but no more than that. The hop-picking season began in September, but the crop was largely ruined in 1888 by the adverse weather conditions, hence their return to London more or less penniless. If they were gone for the whole month, Kelly would be alibi'd for the only murder in September prior to the double event, that of Annie Chapman on the 8th, but how do we know that they left that early? Kelly's alibi is his own uncorroborated account.

    There is a suggestion that Kate informed the Superintendent at the Casual Ward that she had returned to London because she thought she knew the identity of the killer and wanted to claim the (non-existent) reward. If she had been hop-picking in Kent for several weeks, how could she have come by information which led her to believe she knew the identity of the killer? We don't know with certainty that she made such a claim of course but, if she did, how could a woman hop-picking in Kent have learned the identity of a man who had been killing prostitutes in London? I would have to conclude that someone who was with her in Kent said, or did, something to lead her to that conclusion.

    You seem to be leaning towards Kelly for Eddowes, Lynn, but why not Kelly for all of them - at least as a possibility? With Eddowes dead, we only have his word for it that he was in Kent throughout the hop-picking season.

    Regards, Bridewell
    I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

  • #2
    food for thought

    Hello Bridewell.

    "One minute he insists that he had no stranger there between 1 and 2am, the next he can't remember and needs to refer to his book!'

    This has always struck me like the famed scene from "The Rutles" where George Harrison (of the Beatles) is conducting an interview with a Rutle. Whist this is going on and the Rutle talks about being on top of the situation, robbers are cleaning him out. As Milo Perrier put it, "As you can see, NOTHING escapes me."

    "I doubt if the detectives were enquiring about Eddowes, so presumably the concern was to identify Stride, but even her body wasn't discovered until 1am, so it was probably nearer 2 than 1 when the detectives arrived. There is less certainty in Wilkinson's account than he is claiming, and I think there has to be a possibility that he was asleep for part of the time."

    Who were the two detectives? Were they REALLY Met coppers?

    "We are told that Kelly and Eddowes had been hop-picking in Kent for some weeks, but no more than that. The hop-picking season began in September, but the crop was largely ruined in 1888 by the adverse weather conditions, hence their return to London more or less penniless. If they were gone for the whole month, Kelly would be alibi'd for the only murder in September prior to the double event, that of Annie Chapman on the 8th, but how do we know that they left that early? Kelly's alibi is his own uncorroborated account."

    I found a snippet ("Echo" if I recall properly) in which the hop pickers were returning home. Date of story? About the first week of September.

    "There is a suggestion that Kate informed the Superintendent at the Casual Ward that she had returned to London because she thought she knew the identity of the killer and wanted to claim the (non-existent) reward. If she had been hop-picking in Kent for several weeks, how could she have come by information which led her to believe she knew the identity of the killer? We don't know with certainty that she made such a claim of course but, if she did, how could a woman hop-picking in Kent have learned the identity of a man who had been killing prostitutes in London? I would have to conclude that someone who was with her in Kent said, or did, something to lead her to that conclusion."

    Of course, this story is apocryphal. But still one wonders why her effects were so thoroughly examined by her assailant.

    Some food for thought: Lawende saw Kate with her hand on the bloke's chest. Looks nice and cosy, eh?

    (Thanks for starting this thread. Nice to know there is another crackpot about--besides me.)

    Cheers.
    LC

    Comment


    • #3
      Kelly and motive

      Hello (again) Bridewell.

      "You seem to be leaning towards Kelly for Eddowes, Lynn"

      Well, it may be more complicated than that. I think he knew the score and had been scared into silence.

      " . . . but why not Kelly for all of them - at least as a possibility? With Eddowes dead, we only have his word for it that he was in Kent throughout the hop-picking season."

      OK, what was his motive?

      Cheers.
      LC

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Bridewell

        Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
        If they were gone for the whole month, Kelly would be alibi'd for the only murder in September prior to the double event, that of Annie Chapman on the 8th, but how do we know that they left that early?
        According to Eddowes sister, Eliza Gold, at the inquest on 4th Oct, Eddowes visited her in Thrawl St three or four weeks ago.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Bridewell

          Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
          With Eddowes dead, we only have his word for it that he was in Kent throughout the hop-picking season.
          There was the couple who worked in the same hopfield and gave them the pawn ticket in the name of Emily Burrell. The couple returned with them as far as Maidstone, turning off for Chatham.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Lynn

            Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
            Some food for thought: Lawende saw Kate with her hand on the bloke's chest. Looks nice and cosy, eh?
            She was probably feeling him up for his watch or coins.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hi.
              I guess we are running out of suspects, we have had Barnett, lover of Mary Kelly, then Fleming , ex lover, then Kidney, companion of Liz Stride, and now poor Kate's partner Kelly, and lets not forget a certain witness[ who knew MJK] GH.
              If one is totally honest, none of these are likely, apart from Fleming, but even he appears unlikely.
              I would suggest the killer of all of these women was one man, who either was the typical serial killer, with a morbid mission, aroused by the sighting of prostitutes, or someone who was conducting a planned series of events that terminated with the death of MJK,[who may have been the reason].
              We could add a few more unlikely's.
              How about Richardson/ Mrs Pickert[?] the former allegedly only a couple of feet from a body, the latter annoyed by Mary's singing, and by her own admission,knocked Kelly's door around 730am, to borrow a shawl...was it her that Maurice Lewis , saw leaving, wrapped in kellys' shawl, and was it her that Maxwell saw , and spoke to?.
              Of course not...most certainly not the case of the angry neighbour..
              To me it all seems rather convenient, that Kelly was the last victim[ most likely] and it happened on a night /morning when she was alone[ no Barnett, or sleepovers] and that [ oral] someone called at the court looking for Mary, and was sent packing by McCarthy, and then she falls at the hands of the 'Ripper'.
              Does it not seem strange, that shortly before her death she informs a neighbour of a dream that she had , of being 'Murdered'.
              Does it not seem strange that on the morning of her death, she is witnessed with a well dressed ,man , carrying a paper parcel, and actually takes this strange man back to her lonely room.
              Does it not seem strange, that a few hours previous, she had said 'She would do away with herself'
              Does it not seem strange, that a couple laughed at the reward poster near the passage[ millers court]
              Does it not seem strange, that she is seen by a person who knew her at 8am on the 9TH, and this person spoke to her.
              Make any speculations about all of that, any scenario's , but I would rate John Kelly, Michael Kidney, and any current lovers, as non starters for being the killer.
              Regards Richard.

              Comment


              • #8
                coming back

                Hello Jon.

                "According to Eddowes sister, Eliza Gold, at the inquest on 4th Oct, Eddowes visited her in Thrawl St three or four weeks ago."

                And if this is correct, it would have coincided with the time when many hop pickers were coming BACK from the dismal harvest.

                Cheers.
                LC

                Comment


                • #9
                  pickpocket

                  Hello (again) Jon.

                  "She was probably feeling him up for his watch or coins."

                  Interesting. Do we know if Kate were ever up for pickpocketing?

                  Cheers.
                  LC

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    significant other

                    Hello Richard. I know what you mean, but of course the police always begin with the murdered female's "significant other."

                    Cheers.
                    LC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I know what you mean, but of course the police always begin with the murdered female's "significant other."
                      I expect they did in this case too...and eliminated him!

                      Best wishes

                      Dave

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        hop to it

                        Hello Dave. I daresay.

                        As an aside, it seems the City of London police never bought the "hopping" story. There is a tale in the papers, possibly apocryphal, in which Kate was receiving money from a man a week before she was slain. The story indicated that the City police were investigating. But if so, surely they did not accept that she was in Kent picking hops?

                        Cheers.
                        LC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          More in hop than expectoration

                          As an aside, it seems the City of London police never bought the "hopping" story. There is a tale in the papers, possibly apocryphal, in which Kate was receiving money from a man a week before she was slain. The story indicated that the City police were investigating. But if so, surely they did not accept that she was in Kent picking hops?
                          Always that sting in the tail...

                          Bless you Lynn!

                          Dave

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            ???

                            Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                            Hello (again) Bridewell.

                            "You seem to be leaning towards Kelly for Eddowes, Lynn"

                            Well, it may be more complicated than that. I think he knew the score and had been scared into silence.

                            " . . . but why not Kelly for all of them - at least as a possibility? With Eddowes dead, we only have his word for it that he was in Kent throughout the hop-picking season."

                            OK, what was his motive?

                            Cheers.
                            LC
                            Haven't a clue! I just thought it worthwhile starting a thread, in view of the direction the other one was taking. For the record, I'm not a Kellyerian (?), just a devil's advocate!

                            Regards, Bridewell.
                            I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Great expectorations.

                              Hello Dave. Well, you really spat that one out. (Sorry!)

                              There is much more to Kate and John's movements on Friday and Saturday than meets the eye. Delighted finally to have a chance to discuss this.

                              Cheers.
                              LC

                              Comment

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