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Lechmere
10-23-2011, 03:53 AM
Joseph Hutchinson married Hannah Mallinson on 22nd July 1857.
They were apparently living together at the time of the marriage at 1 York Road (now 60 York Way) and the ceremony took place in Islington Parish Church (St Mary’s on Upper Street).
Joseph was a publican and his father, Richard, had been a labourer.
Hannah’s father, George, had been a farmer.
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The pub at 1 York Road was called the Ambassador and was run by Joseph’s brother John Hutchinson.
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On 10th December 1859 their third child was born. He was baptised George on 6th January 1860.
By now the family had moved from north London to the East End and lived at 34 King David Lane.
Father Joseph wads a licensed victualler – a publican.
The baptism took place in St Paul’s church, Shadwell. It is just across The Highway from King David’s Lane.
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St Paul’s Shadwell was rebuilt in 1820, paid for by the Church Building Act of 1818, which was designed to ensure that enough churches were available in the newly expanding urban population centres. It had been known as the Church of Sea Captains as it was near the docks – and Captain Cook worshiped in the earlier church building.
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There were two pubs on King David Lane – one at the Cable Street end and one at The Highway end.
That part of The Highway that was in Shadwell parish was then called Shadwell High Street. The continuation in the parish of St George’s in the East being called St George Street. Previously it had all been called Ratcliff Highway.
At the Cable Street end was the Crooked Billet, while at the High Street end was the Coach and Horses.
Joseph’s pub was the Crooked Billet.
This pub was on a corner and there was only a tiny rear yard. This will disappoint those who were hoping that it might be a coaching inn!

Lechmere
10-23-2011, 01:21 PM
Here is the 1861 census – it is a bit fuzzy.
It shows they were actually living at 43 King David Lane in Shadwell. I presume the numbers 4 and 3 were transposed on the baptismal record.
43 was the address of the Crooked Billet.
The household consists of:
Joseph Hutchinson aged 41 a licensed victualler, born in Yorkshire.
Hannah Hutchinson his wife aged 25, also born in Yorkshire.
Clara Hutchinson, a daughter aged 3, born in Islington
Mary, another daughter aged 2 and also born in Islington
George Hutchinson, aged 1, born in Shadwell
This tells us they only moved to Shadwell from Islington shortly before the birth of George.
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Rubyretro
10-23-2011, 06:08 PM
I'm not disappointed at all, Lechmere !

A big 'Thank You' once again !

So...what do you know know about 'The Ambassador' and 'The Coach and Horses' ?

Have you found anything else out about this George ???

Rubyretro
10-23-2011, 07:22 PM
too busy to even think about it...but some quick observations :

-the brother of the Landlord of the 'Coach and Horses' was a publican in Islington. Athough this is most probably a coincidence, yet the word 'Islington' doesn't appear together with any other pub name. The Coach and Horses seems to be in the same road as the

Rubyretro
10-23-2011, 07:31 PM
Sorry -all my Casebook page has gone haywire, and no time to f around..
(I wanted to add 'Crooked Billet' to my last post).

-why can't I find any info on Coaching Houses in East London ?
Apparently the Head Groom was called The Porter, and got great 'tips'.
Kids were 'nippers'.

Rubyretro
10-23-2011, 07:40 PM
I would have guessed that the 'Coach and Horses' had SOMETHING to do with coaches and horses ?? (and had a few 'nippers' hanging about !).

Is there any way of finding this G Hutchinson in Yorkshire after 1888 (if , by chance, he went there ?)
He must have gone somewhere, and supposedly he had family in Yorkshire.

Lechmere
10-23-2011, 09:00 PM
Patience my dear. Give me a chance.

Lechmere
10-24-2011, 12:20 AM
In the 1860s Shadwell was one of the worst slums in the entire country.
Joseph’s pub, the Crooked Billet, was in a back street location.
The other pub on the corner of King David Lane and Shadwell High Street, the Coach and Horses, had a common name for a pub. It is a safe bet to assume that any connection to coaches and horses would have been a long time previously. Shadwell High Street was not a major thoroughfare by the 1860s. The area had been relatively prosperous some 80 years before, when Captain Cook and other sea captains lived in Shadwell, but those times had long passed.
The Page family ran the Coach and Horses for about 70 years, from at least 1861 up to 1930. The son of the first Page landlord, Nicholas Robert Page, apparently took over a pub in Islington. I think this Nicholas Robert Page went on to run another pub called the Coach and Horses in Matthias Road, Stoke Newington in 1881.
I doubt that there was any connection between the Pages and the Hutchinsons, given Joseph’s relatively brief connection with Shadwell. But it might be worth looking at.
I suspect that there would never have been many coaching inns in the east end as it was close to the City which would have tended to be the destination or point of departure. The first ones would have logically been a day’s ride from London.

By the time of the 1871 census it was all change – and it is difficult to fathom out what has gone on.

Joseph Hutchinson has given up his East End back street boozer and gone back to Islington, well Finsbury, anyway. To ‘The Ambassador’ pub in fact, on York Road. This was just around the corner from Kings Cross Station. One has to presume that Joseph Hutchinson’s term as landlord in Shadwell was not spectacularly successful.

The landlord of ‘The Ambassador’ was Joseph’s nephew John Hutchinson.
I was incorrect when I stated that ‘The Ambassador’ was run by his brother. It was his brother’s son. I will have to go back and check the records to see who was running it in 1861 and indeed in 1851.

The household consists of:

John Hutchinson - Head – a widow, aged 29 (I think), a licensed victualler born in Manchester (possibly)
His brother – (I am unsure of his first name) aged 27, a barman, born in the same place as his brother John.
Joseph Hutchinson – John’s uncle, aged 52, a former licensed victualler, born in Cumberworth, Yorkshire. This is this George Hutchinson’s father. Cumberworth is a small village between Barnsley and Huddersfield.
Hannah Hutchinson – Joseph’s wife (and George’s mother) and John’s aunt. She was aged 34 and was a housekeeper. She was born in Shepley in Yorkshire, a large village very close to Cumberworth.
(Joseph and Hannah’s villages were also mentioned in the 1861 census returns).
Henry Alexander – a 21 year old potman, born in the City of London.
A female - whose first name I can’t decipher but whose surname was Jones, a 19 year old domestic servant, born in Islington.
Clara Hutchinson – John Hutchinson’s niece aged 13, a scholar born in Islington. This is actually Joseph and Hannah’s daughter who we saw in the 1861 census. She would have actually been John Hutchinson’s cousin, rather than niece.
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What can we make of this?
Well clearly the Hutchinson family was close knit but what had happened to the other children?

Lechmere
10-24-2011, 01:21 AM
This is the odd thing about this Hutchinson family in 1871.
The other children have all gone back up to Yorkshire and are living with their mother’s (Hannah) parents (the children’s grandparents) in Cumberworth, the village where Joseph Hutchinson had been born.

The household consists of:

George Mallinson - a 67 year old farm labourer born in Holmfirth in Yorkshire. We met him on Joseph and Hannah’s marriage certificate, when he was listed as a farmer.
Elizabeth Mallinson – his wife aged 63, born in Fulstone in Yorkshire.
Benjamin Mallinson – their son, aged 21, born in Shepley (the same place where his sister Hannah was born). Dare I say it – he was a servant (groom).
Emma Mallinson – their daughter aged 20, also born in Shepley. She was a general domestic servant.
Ann Mallinson – another daughter aged 19, again born in Shepley and also a general domestic servant.
Given that the father George was just a farm labourer it must be presumed that his children were servants for the local well to do.
Mary E Hutchinson – their granddaughter, a scholar aged 12, born in Paddington in Middlesex. Mary was also listed in the 1861 census aged 2, but born in Islington.
George Hutchinson – their grandson, a scholar aged 11, born in Paddington in Middlesex (rather than Shadwell as was the case).
Then some new additions. Joseph and Hannah had been busy and fruitful.
Alfred Hutchinson – another grandson, a scholar aged 6, born in Paddington.
Sarah Ann Hutchinson – another granddaughter, a 7 year old scholar born this time in Shepley.
Ellen Hutchinson – aged 5, born in Paddington.
Benjamin Hutchinson – aged 4, born in Paddington.
James Francis Hutchinson – aged 4, born in Paddington (presumably the twin of Benjamin).
Sarah Hutchinson – aged 2, born in Paddington.
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It is clear that the Yorkshire enumerator was either told incorrect information about the Hutchinson children’s birthplaces or misheard and just put down Paddington instead of Islington or Shadwell.
I presume that Joseph Hutchinson’s business venture in the Crooked Billet totally failed and he was forced to go and stay with his nephew in ‘The Ambassador ‘while most of his children were packed off to his in-laws up in Yorkshire.
It was a semi rural location and young George Hutchinson’s Uncle Benjamin was a groom!

Lechmere
10-24-2011, 04:03 AM
By 1881 Joseph Hutchinson had set himself up in business again in a coffee shop.
He was living at 217 City Road in the Parliamentary Borough of Finsbury.

The family has partially reunited. The household consisted:
Joseph Hutchinson - now a widow aged 61, a coffee shop keeper from Yorkshire. Hannah has evidently died after bearing at least ten children.
Clara Hutchinson - a daughter aged 23, an assistant in the shop, born in Islington.
Mary Hutchinson – a daughter aged 22, also an assistant, born in Islington.
James Hutchinson – a son aged 16, a scholar, born in Islington. This tells us that they had moved from Shadwell by about 1875. According to the 1871 census he was born in Paddington and he should be 14 not 16.
Ann S Hutchinson – a daughter aged 12, a scholar born in Ilford, Essex. I incorrectly just called her Sarah in the previous post. Her name was Ann Sarah. In 1871 she was also listed as being born in Paddington. It would seem the family moved from Shadwell, to Islington, to Ilford and back to Islington.
Rosa Hutchinson – a daughter aged 11, a scholar born in Islington. She did not feature in the 1871 census.
Three other people are living or staying with them at the time of the census.
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Of the Hutchinson children, George, Alfred, Sarah Ann, Ellen and Benjamin are not living at 217 City Road.
This is exceptionally close to ‘The Eagle’, a pub commemorated in a verse:

Up and down the City Road
In and out the Eagle
That's the way the money goes
Pop! goes the weasel.

This verse was first recorded in 1856 when it was actually a popular dance song. The Eagle was run as a Music Hall at that time.
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By my reckoning 217 City Road is about where it says Supermarket in the picture. The Eagle is about ten yards round the corner by the red post box – but it was rebuilt in 1891.

Lechmere
10-24-2011, 02:17 PM
1891 and Joseph Hutchinson has moved out to Kent.
He is living in Swanley, in ‘The Priory’.
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The household consisted of:

Ann Holden – the head, a widow aged 75, living on her own means, born in Cumberworth in Yorkshire.
Joseph Hutchinson – brother, a widow aged 72, born in Cumberworth.
Eliza Hardy – niece (of Ann’s and by implication Joseph’s niece as well), a widow aged 40, born in Kirkburton in Yorkshire.
Clara Hutchinson – niece (of Ann’s but actually Joseph’s daughter), aged 33, born in Islington.
Rose Hutchinson – niece (of Ann’s but actually Joseph’s daughter) aged 20, born in Islington. Rose’s age as given here explains why she wasn’t included in the 1871 census.
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This Priory wasn’t a drying out clinic for minor celebs!
It is still there, a Grade II listed building built around 1820 by Edward Adams. It isn’t within the harsh and rather grim council estate area of Swanley Town, but is in the near-by but leafy, semi-rural Swanley Village.
It is a substantial house that sold for £500,000 in February 2009.
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Clearly Joseph’s sister Ann Holden had married well. She was living on her own means in a substantial property. The entire household seems to be living off her means.
The family remained tight knit – helping each other out. Joseph is getting old and probably couldn’t manage his coffee shop anymore.
Incidentally The Eagle closed as a Music Hall and was rebuilt as just a pub in 1901, not 1891 as I said above.
The niece Eliza Hardy, who is also a widow and must be the daughter of another Hutchinson brother or sister of Ann and Joseph. Eliza was born in Kirkburton which is near Cumberworth in Yorkshire.
Joseph’s daughter Clara was turning into an old spinster.

Lechmere
10-24-2011, 02:38 PM
We have lost sight of George Hutchinson since 1871 when he was in Yorkshire with his maternal grandparents.
The next definite identification that I have been able to find for him so far is in 1901!
He is living in Camden, at 143 High Street, in Camden Town, in the Parliamentary Borough of West St Pancras.
Marks and Spencer currently occupies this site.
15 people in 4 households in nine rooms are sharing one house.
George Hutchinson and his family have 3 rooms.
The household consists of:

George Hutchinson – the head, aged 41, an insurance agent collector born in Shadwell.
Mary J Hutchinson – his wife, aged 50, born in Marylebone.
Mary A Walker – a granddaughter, I think 6 months old and born in Marylebone.
Elizabeth Morris (I think) – a niece, aged 18 and born in Notting Hill.
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So clearly George returned to north London but when?
He presumably had children with Mary as he has a granddaughter who seems to be aged 6 months old. This implies that he married and had children in the mid to early 1880s.
George seems to have a steady, boring sounding job. A door-to-door insurance collector.
Could he have worked in pubs, or been a groom or a labourer, living in a common lodging house in 1888?

Lechmere
10-24-2011, 03:10 PM
George’s wife Mary must have died soon after, as George remarried on September 3rd 1904, in St Albans’s Church in Acton Green, in west London. This church was only built in 1887 but closed in 1997. There is a local controversy about converting it into flats.
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George is a 44 year old widow. An insurance collector, whose father (who was by now deceased), Joseph was a publican.
His second wife was called Sarah Anne Hopton. She was 38 and lived at 36 St Alban’s Avenue in Acton.
This property sold for over a million in 2007. Looking at the street scene that surprises me but that was at the height of the property market. They seem to go for about £750,000 now. Still they would have been nice new comfortable houses in 1904.
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At this time George was living at 8 Crane Grove, Holloway Road, in North London.
This is still just behind Highbury and Islington station. It is the house with the blue door.
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There is a good, if slightly blotchy, version of this George’s signature on this certificate.
Without wishing to get involved in a big handwriting debate here, I don’t think it compares very well to the three witness signatures from 1888.

Rubyretro
10-24-2011, 05:11 PM
I'm still very busy and my Casebook page is still 'weird'.....still -you have got me fascinated by this thread, Lechmere (I think that Bob Hinton was right, and this George H. is a pretty good candidate for the Witness....)

Some 'off the top of the head' observations (no order) :

-Page & Hutchinson may have no link...yet there are only two families of Publicans in Shadwell in the 1880s with the word Islington associated, and they are both in the same road ? (might the Hutchinsons have relocated to
Shadwell at the suggestion and with the help of a Page ?)

-'The Coach and Horses' is a common pub name...if you Google it, the answers say that 'predictably' it was a typical name for an old Coaching Inn.

*There were no motor cars in the 1880s but lots of horse drawn vehicules.

*The East End might have been a destination rather than a staging post.

* Wherever horses stopped, someone had to bring water, food, and muck out the place -even if passangers weren't sleeping over, nor parcels being carried.

* The Coach and Horses might have been of the size, with the yard, to receive horse drawn vehicules even if it no longer received official 'Post'.

-I think that this Yorkshire connection for the Hutchinsons is really interesting ! (ANYTHING at all ?)

Rubyretro
10-24-2011, 05:25 PM
(still frustrated that none of the proposd formats for 'replies' are 'normal' !)
The signatures for this same 'George' don't match at all at 3 years interval..

Lechmere
10-25-2011, 12:15 AM
Rubyretro, it’s virtually impossible for this George Hutchinson to be the witness who says he saw Kelly.
In 1888 this George Hutchinson was married to someone called Mary and had children. It is not very plausible that he managed to sneak out and stay at the Victoria Home.
It really doesn’t matter whether this George Hutchinson spent his entire time in Yorkshire learning the mysterious arts of grooming via his Uncle Benjamin. The marriage alone virtually destroys his candidacy.

Incidentally Benjamin Mallinson is listed as a Servant (Groom). This implies to me that the ‘groom’ bit was added as an afterthought. There were over 500,000 working horses in London in the mid Victorian period. You do not come across many grooms in any of the census returns. This tells me that many horse users – Carmen and the like – must have looked after their own horses. This in turn implies that a groom wasn’t a specialist job that required particular long term training.

With respect to grooming opportunities at The Coach and Horses, the Hutchinsons were in Shadwell only from about 1859 to 1865. George Hutchinson left the area when he was only six years old and I doubt he could have learnt much about grooming horses at this stage in his life.

This is actually the only connection this Hutchinson family had to the East End that I have been able to establish.
(I mistakenly gave the date 1875 instead of 1865 in post 10, but the birth of James Hutchinson in Islington in 1865 suggests that they had let Shadwell by then).

The Page family pub, The Coach and Horses may conceivably have had its origins as a coaching inn in the dim and distant past – perhaps in the mid 18th century when Shadwell was the residence of choice for many prosperous seafaring men.
The actual address was 199 Shadwell High Street – this was on the west corner of King David Lane
We have a plan of this property from the 1790s.
I have highlighted The Coach and Horses in red and The Crooked Billet in green.
It was more built up by the 1860s – particularly the eastern side of King David Lane. Going by this map, this property certainly wasn’t a coaching inn in the 1790s.
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I have the 1894 Ordnance Survey map which shows that both buildings had the same footprint 100 years later, when the Pages were still running The Coach and Horses. You can also see Shadwell parish church on these maps.
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We don’t know when the younger Page went to Islington. It could have been around 1865, at the same time that the Hutchinsons quit The Crooked Billet. However as Joseph Hutchinson went to stay with his nephew, there is no reason to suppose that the Pages facilitated the move.
There is still less reason to think that the Pages assisted the Hutchinsons moving to Shadwell in 1859. The Pages were originally from the Isle of Wight whereas the Hutchinsons were from Yorkshire via Islington.

I will however make a few more enquiries.

Lechmere
10-25-2011, 12:57 AM
This is the 1881 census return relating to the George Hutchinson who was living at 1 Rosoman Street, in the Parish of Clerkenwell, and the Parliamentary Borough of Finsbury.
This was indeed the John of Jerusalem pub. He is a barman.
Rosoman Street is just off Rosebury Avenue and is about 1 minute away the London Metropolitan Archives. It is about half a mile west from the coffee shop that Joseph Hutchinson’s was running in 1881 on the City Road.
This may be the correct George Hutchinson. The age, 21, is right. However the place of birth is given just as Middlesex, London. If it had said Shadwell that would have clinched it.
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If this is the correct George Hutchinson then he must have married his wife Mary a couple of years later.

Lechmere
10-27-2011, 04:05 PM
I think I have found the record of the marriage of this George Hutchinson to Mary. It is in the final quarter of 1887 and took place in Marylebone – which is where his wife was born.
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If this is the same man it tends to discount this George Hutchinson as the witness unless of course he split up with his wife in the Autumn of 1888 - briefly.