The Broken Window

[Chava]

This is courtesy of a sharp-eyed person called Dr Nemo on another thread.

Has anyone ever checked the veracity of that 'she leaned through the window to lock the door' story? Because he's right to question it. When you come to think about it, it doesn't make all that much sense. She would have risked ripping an artery every time she did it. And as he points out, that broken pane is a long way from where the door is. Can anyone post pix either to support her doing it or to prove she couldn't have?

And if it really wasn't possible, why did that story go around?

[packers stem]

Hi Chava
Been wondering this myself.She would almost certainly have had to go in to shoulder length -if it was possible at all.
Common sense would tell you to remove the remaining pieces of glass from that particular pane, if this was to be used as the method of entry, to prevent serious injury(drunk in the dark!!).
Not to mention demonstrating to every client how to gain access to her room.
What type of clothing would she have had to wear to enable her to get her shoulder into that crack.
None of this seems likely to me.
Much more likely it was just another porkie told to Barnett(or BY Barnett) and that the key was never lost.

Is this the Dr.Nemo thread you refer to?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=636&page=8

[Phil Carter]

Time

Hello Chava, packers Stem,

The point I wonder about is the length of time the window was said to be broken, and the length of time the key was said to be missing. If she never attempted to open the door after the window was broken by this method, because as you rightly say, she'd risk cutting an artery every time, it would depend on how long the window had been in that state.

Re windows, "Sourcebook" quotes John McCarthy at the inquest saying the following..

"...They lived comfortably together but once broke the two windows.."

(in reference to Kelly and Barnett's cohabitation)

best wishes

Phil

[Fisherman]

Phil C:

"...They lived comfortably together but once broke the two windows.."

That probably refers to the fact that there were two broken panes in the window closest to the door, I believe - not that both of the windows were broken per se.

This is what Dr Phillips said: 'I looked through the lower of the broken panes and satisfied myself that the mutilated corpse lying on the bed was not in need of any immediate attention from me'.

The best,
Fisherman

[claire]

The timing is interesting, isn't it? On the one hand, we have an account that says that the window was broken on 30 October, the night that Barnett supposedly walked out. On the other, we have him (don't we?) saying that the key was lost some time before. It has to be a matter of some coincidence that they lost the key, had to leave the room unsecured, and then, fighting on the night Barnett moved out, they managed to break the window in just such a way as to permit access to the door lock.

There are so many other plausible scenarios to explain the 'coincidence' than coincidence itself, that it does make me wonder (although McCarthy's statement, that Phil refers to, hints that those windows were broken before 30/X, so perhaps the stated date is wrong.

I'm less baffled by the mechanics of getting access to the lock from the window. I think it's quite possible, albeit a little risky. I just get snagged up on the idea that the key had been lost for a while but the window, that supposedly offered the only means of getting into a room that one had decided to lock, was accidentally and conveniently broken at some other point. That said, squinty eyes at the exterior photo of the room hint that the two window-panes closest the corner were almost smashed out.

[kensei]

The implication seems to be made that perhaps the window was not broken during a fight at all, but broken on purpose to provide access to the room after the key was lost. This begs the question- would McCarthy have charged an arm and a leg to provide a new key if they'd just told him right away that they'd lost theirs'?

[Nemo]

Don't know if these are any help

IMO a person could easily reach the lock but, as described, this would probably be by inserting the arm at least to the elbow

A cloth in the window or some sort of arm extension device might be points to consider

[Chava]

Thanks for the graphics Nemo! That's a great help.

If those dimensions are correct, it's possible to open the door through the window. But she'd have to push aside the coat thingie that she had hanging across as a sort of curtain. So she has to reach down, probably get her arm under the coat and get the lock. It's certainly doable if she's got long enough arms and if she's made sure to remove the jagged edges from the bottom of the pane so she's clear to the sill. But she's not wearing modern clothing, which would be easy to move around in. I don't know if she's wearing stays but even if she isn't, her skirt and jacket would be tight-fitting, and the arm-holes were cut high and tight in those days, so I don't think it would be the easiest access for her.

I think what may have happened is this:

- They lost the key. Didn't want to/couldn't afford to tell McCarthy about it as I imagine he would have made them pay for a new one.

- They needed to at least look secure, so they broke the lower pane of glass deliberately in order to be able to reach through and unlock the door.

- They had a big fight. During that fight the upper pane of glass was broken.

- Barnett left.

Cox makes no mention of seeing MJK go through this pantomime with the window when she returned home from the pub with Mr Blotchy-Face. So I think it's possible that either (a) she found the key or (b) she never did the window-to-door thing herself probably because her arms weren't long enough, and so every time she went out she left the door open and hoped for the best that no one would try it.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I believe it was reported somewhere that a simple device, was indeed used ie a piece of string, but I stand to be corrected.
Regards Richard.

[Jane Coram]

Hi,

This looks as it's going to develop into an interesting thread!

The distances between the window and the door was discussed at length here on Casebook a while ago, and it was proved more of less conclusively that it was a fairly easy reach for anyone, man or woman.

I can't remember exactly, or if the thread was lost when the site went down, but I seem to remember that Frank Von Oploo (and apologies if I've spelt the name wrong) might have been the one to work out the dimensions and distances. I could be misremembering, it was a fair while ago. I do have a Casebook CD and I'll see if I can find the thread. (By the way, if anyone hasn't bought the CD, do yourself a favour and buy it. )

It probably wouldn't have been too risky putting an arm through the window, because they were very large panes, and looking at the photograph of the actual area of glass that was missing in that lower right hand pane, it would seem to have been quite easy to put your arm through right up to the shoulder without getting anywhere near glass.

I'll see if I can find the information from the old thread and either post a link or post the information up. It's good stuff!

Hugs

Janie

xxxx

[FrankO]

I can't remember exactly, or if the thread was lost when the site went down, but I seem to remember that Frank Von Oploo (and apologies if I've spelt the name wrong) might have been the one to work out the dimensions and distances.

You remembered right, Janie! It was indeed I, who worked out the approximate dimensions and distances on the thread you referred to. It's still here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=136589

And you were almost right on the money regarding my name too: Frank van Oploo ('von' is German, meaning 'of' just like the Dutch 'van'). So, no apologies needed.

All the best,
Frank

[Chava]

Thanks so much Frank!

However I have one more question. I can never keep this info in my head. The lock on the door, was it what I would call a 'Yale lock'? Which would mean that you open it with a key, but when you go out and close the door it locks automatically, and you have to put up the 'sneck' if you don't want to get locked out. If it is, then MJK/Barnett don't just need to lean over and open the lock, they have to put the sneck up as well. I'm not suggesting they didn't. But it's a bit fiddlier than one would wish. And if you are not left-handed it might be a very difficult operation to achieve one-handed. The alternative would be to push the door open, but again, at the angle you'd have to lean to get at the door, it might not be an easy thing to do.

[FrankO]

Thanks so much Frank!

You're very welcome, Chava!

You may find the answer to your question on this old but interesting thread that I've just dug up again:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/6293.html

You can also check the 2 archives at the top of the thread.

All the best,
Frank

[jason_c]

"An impression has gone abroad that the murderer took away the key of the room. Barnett informs me that it has been missing some time, and since it has been lost they have put their hand through the broken window, and moved back the catch. It is quite easy."


I believe Abberline accepted this explanation. He was there at the time, could view the dimensions, and once the door was opened could view the lock in more detail.

I wonder if the poor lighting in the room prevented the police from noticing the door was simply on a latch.

[Errata]

I wonder if the poor lighting in the room prevented the police from noticing the door was simply on a latch.

It may have just have been a reporting error. Or a mental glitch. They were called to the scene by McCarthy who said something like "We saw through the window something was wrong, and we tried the door but it was locked."
They are waiting for hours outside in the cold for a pair of dogs who never show, there is a mutilated corpse in the room, their nerves are probably about shot. The police know its locked because McCarthy said it was, but if they noticed the relationship of the window to the door, once they saw the corpse they probably forgot it. Finally McCarthy is told to break the door down, which is a reasonable order about a locked door, and McCarthy is probably in no shape nor has any desire to reach through that window instead. Assuming he ever noticed the broken window and it's relationship to the door. He may never have noticed the broken pane, he may never have thought that it was about right for a person to reach through and unlock the door. And even if he did, he probably wasn't thinking about it, or wasn't willing to mention it lest they tell him to stick his arm in there. Most likely he was sufficiently traumatized that when given a direct order, he obeyed it with thinking about it. I don't know what people talk about in front of the door to a room where there is a woman inside who looks like she's been run through a wood chipper. Especially after waiting for hours. I doubt it occurred to the cop to ask McCarthy what type of lock it was. Or if there was any other way in. They had already come to the conclusion that they couldn't save her. It was probably several men standing around in silence, some occasionally asking "Where are the damn dogs?" I really can't think of a more tense situation.