Is this who I think it is??

[Pinkerton]

Not "Breezers Hill" but "Breeze Hill". Not Mrs. "Carthy" but Mrs. MCCARTHY. Located off of Ratcliffe Highway and located off of Pennington Street (see case below). This case also involves a prostitute named Lottie...

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?ref=t18911019-791

[Phil Carter]

Pinkers,

I like this..a lot. Perhaps Chris or Chris Scott can verify a little?
This could be an answer. I do hope so. Well found!!

best wishes

Phil

[DVV]

I knew you would like it, Phil.
But cool down.
It's not about who you think.
What do you think ?

Amitiés,
David

[Debra A]

Nice find, Pinkerton,

ROSE MCCARTHY . I am the wife of John McCarthy, of 1, Breeze Hill, St. George's

I wonder how this fits with the John and Mary Carthy known to be living at 1 Breezers Hill in 1891?

[Chris Scott]

Very nice find:-)

1891 Census
1 Breezer's Hill, St George in the East
Head: John McCarthy aged 36 born Whitechapel - Dock labourer
Wife: Mary Mccarthy aged 29 born Shoreditch
Boarders:
Ellen Forbes aged 28 born Glasgow - Unfortunate
Abey Marah (sic) aged 26 born Whitechapel - Unfortunate
Emma Britton aged 29 born Brostol - Unfortunate
Visitor:
William Fenely aged 40(?) born Sunderland - Seaman
Child:
Ellen Fallon aged 8 born St Georhe East

N.B. In the listings of Forbes. Marah and Britton, "unfortunate" is legibly written in and then crossed out

[Chris Scott]

Here are the original entries:

[Chris]

As she is Mrs McCarthy, the wife of John McCarthy, of 1 Breezer's Hill, I think she has to be the same woman as Mary, wife of John McCarthy, of 1 Breezer's Hill, who appears in the 1891 census and who has been identified previously as "Mrs Carthy":

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Mrs._Carthy

It's strange that the Old Bailey Proceedings call her Rose, rather than Mary.

There is a thread on the old boards with a lot of information about these McCarthys, posted by Chris Scott and Neal Shelden:

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/10040.html

[Chris Scott]

Below is the entry for Brescher from the Criminal Registers
The page is headed Central Criminal Court, 19 Oct 1891

[Chris Scott]

There are two marriage records for a Joseph Brescher. There is a two year age difference but this is the same man as his parentage and trade show.
The first is is in August 1899 in Shadwell when a Joseph Brescher married a Matilda Thorson.
He is listed as a 34 year old skin dresser living at 9 Coleman Street, son of Andrew Brescher, a paper hanger
The second marriage took place in June 1911 in St George in the East.
This Jospeh Brescher, a widower, a skin dresser, married Marie Sophie Augusta Brown. His age is listed as 44 but his father is again given as Andrew Brescher, paper hanger. His address at that time was 78 Grove Street.

[Pinkerton]

Lottie

Thanks all. And thanks for all of the info Chris.

Could this "Lottie" person also be the same "Lottie" that Kathleen Blake Watkins interviewed years later who said she knew MJK and was now living in her room in Miller's Court? Her last name was not given in the interview unfortunately. See the dissertation below for background.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kit.html

[Phil Carter]

As she is Mrs McCarthy, the wife of John McCarthy, of 1 Breezer's Hill, I think she has to be the same woman as Mary, wife of John McCarthy, of 1 Breezer's Hill, who appears in the 1891 census and who has been identified previously as "Mrs Carthy":

http://wiki.casebook.org/index.php/Mrs._Carthy

It's strange that the Old Bailey Proceedings call her Rose, rather than Mary.

There is a thread on the old boards with a lot of information about these McCarthys, posted by Chris Scott and Neal Shelden:
http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/10040.html

Chris,

Great researching...maybe an answer to the Mary...Rose thing..

Full name Rosemary perhaps? Known as Mary to all?

Just a thought.

Pinkerton, this really is an important find. Again, congratulations!!

best wishes

Phil

[Chris Scott]

Here is the 1891 census listing for 79 Pennington Street. This would have been just a few months before the Old Bailey case. This listing includes both the defendant (under the spelling of BRESHER) and Lottie Jones as living at that address.

Lodger:
Joseph Bresher aged 25 born Germany - Skin dyer

Lodger:
Lottie Jones aged 30 born Ipswich - Tailoress

[Chris]

Just a quick thought. Mrs Mary Carthy/McCarthy was traced after a Mrs Elizabeth Phoenix of 157 Bow Common Lane made a statement to the police mentioning her.

The A-Z says that Mary and Elizabeth were sisters-in-law. I must admit I haven't seen most of the press reports that are cited in the wiki articles on Mary and Elizabeth, but in the one that is available on Casebook - the Morning Advertiser of 12 November - Mrs Phoenix is quoted as referring to the house on Breezer's Hill as "her brother-in-law's house", which wouldn't be quite the same thing. It's curious that previous researchers have found that a Eugene McCarthy was living at 157 Bow Common Lane, the address given by Mrs Phoenix, in 1891.

It's difficult to make sense of this, but I wonder whether a step- or half-blood relationship could be involved. Could Mrs Phoenix's husband have been a step-brother or half-brother of John and Eugene McCarthy? Or could "brother-in-law" actually have been used in the sense of "stepbrother", so that Mrs Phoenix herself could have been stepsister of Eugene and John?

Either way, it might be interesting to know more of Eugene McCarthy's antecedents. Having said that, they don't seem easy to discover, and I'm sure people have looked for them already. Equally, it seems hard to find a plausible candidate for Elizabeth Phoenix herself, despite her uncommon surname.