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  • Killer description and Suspect appearance

    Hi everyone. I had a question. Although we cannot definitely say for certain if witnesses in the JTR case actually had a glimpse of the murderer, I thought it might be interesting to compare their descriptions with some of the plausible suspects we have in the case. Now, if we assume that the witnesses did, in fact, catch a glimpse of JTR, the killer is described as: usually between the ages of 26-30 (with an exception by one witness who said he appeared over 40), moustache (sometimes short, sometimes prominent), wearing a deerstalker hat or a cap with a peak, a red hankerchief, in the area of 5'5"-5'7", may or may not have had a foreign accent; other descriptions have him as being "shabby, genteel" blotchy-faced, or maybe dressed like a "toff" but the clothes appeared to be not recent and rather worn out (as per George Hutchinson)

    Now, among the plausible suspects we have, does anyone think this description looks kind of like any that we have on record? Me personally, it is hard to say but my preferred suspect has always been Klosowski.

    One question I did have concerns the jewish suspects (Kosminski, Cohen ,and Levy). Since msot of these descriptions describe a man with either the appearance of a sailor or local East End gent, what did the Jews of the East End look like in regard to appearance. I mean, did any of them try to "blend in" and made their appearance and garments similar to local East End citizens or did they sort of had a more "stereotypical" appearance? if the latter is true, doesn't that make it difficult for the Jewish suspects to be the murderer based on the witness descriptions?
    I won't make any deals. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed,de-briefed, or numbered!

  • #2
    Hello JTSickert!

    Well, with the moustache;

    I find it possible, that he could have shaved between the murders!

    All the best
    Jukka
    "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi JTR. There were many, many Anglicized Jews, although it's the recent immigrants that usually get discussed. Regarding Klosowski, his prominent moustache seems to have gone unnoticed by Mrs. Long and Lawende, which I find very odd, and BS Man had a small moustache. While height and age are very fluid in witness descriptions, moustaches like that worn by Klosowski, Tumblety, and Michael Kidney, are no more likely to have been mistaken as 'small' at that time than a 1978 Volkswagen is likely to be mistaken for a 2010 Lexus today.

      Yours truly,

      Tom Wescott

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tom_Wescott View Post
        Hi JTR. There were many, many Anglicized Jews, although it's the recent immigrants that usually get discussed. Regarding Klosowski, his prominent moustache seems to have gone unnoticed by Mrs. Long and Lawende, which I find very odd
        Tom,
        that is assuming Klosowski had his mustache that prominent in 1888.
        I won't make any deals. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed,de-briefed, or numbered!

        Comment


        • #5
          That's a very fair point, JTR. So we don't know how he wore his moustache in 1888?
          I personally feel that most suspects could fit in with the descriptions, which are rather varied. If we take Anderson's later comments out of the equation, then there's no reason to suppose that Lawende saw a Jew. If we view Hutchinson's descriptions separately, then he saw either a gentile or a Jew. Taller, apparently gentile suspects such as Pipeman or the Blenkinsop man fit in nicely with suspects such as Le Grand and D'Onston, and possibly Tumblety if its proved he had a 'detachable' moustache. The Lardy suspect could be Tumblety, D'Onston, or neither. This is just a few examples.

          Yours truly,

          Tom Wescott

          Comment


          • #6
            Description by Cox.

            “We had many people under observation while the murders were being perpetrated, but it was not until the discovery of the body of Mary Kelly had been made that we seemed to get upon the trail. Certain investigations made by several of our cleverest detectives made it apparent to us that a man living in the East End of London was not unlikely to have been connected with the crimes.”

            “The man we suspected was about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair, and he had a habit of taking late walks abroad. He occupied several shops in the East End, but from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey.

            While the Whitechapel murders were being perpetrated his place of business was in a certain street, and after the last murder I was on duty in this street for nearly three months. There were several other officers with me, and I think there can be no harm in stating that the opinion of most of them was that the man they were watching had something to do with the crimes.

            “We carried our lives in our hands so to speak, and at last we had to partly take the alarmed inhabitants into our confidence, and so throw them off the scent. We told them we were factory inspectors looking for tailors and capmakers who employed boys and girls under age, and pointing out the evils accruing from the sweaters' system asked them to co-operate with us in destroying it.”

            Pirate

            PS I've sent a PM about the discs.

            Comment


            • #7
              Pirate Jack, that seems to conform to the eyewitness testimony:

              "While standing under a street light on outside the Queen's Head Public House Hutchinson gets a good look at the man with Mary Jane Kelly. He has a pale complexion, a slight moustache turned up at the corners (changed to dark complexion and heavy moustache in the press reports), dark hair, dark eyes, and bushy eyebrows. He is, according to Hutchinson, of "Jewish appearance." The man is wearing a soft felt hat pulled down over his eyes, a long dark coat trimmed in astrakhan, a white collar with a black necktie fixed with a horseshoe pin. He wears dark spats over light button over boots. A massive gold chain is in his waistcoat with a large seal with a red stone hanging from it. He carries kid gloves in his right hand and a small package in his left. He is 5' 6" or 5' 7" tall and about 35 or 36 years old.

              Kelly and the man cross Commercial Street and turn down Dorset Street. Hutchinson follows them. Kelly and the man stop outside Miller's Court and talk for about 3 minutes. Kelly is heard to say "All right, my dear. Come along. You will be comfortable." The man puts his arm around Kelly who kisses him. "I've lost my handkerchief." she says. At this he hands her a red handkerchief. The couple then heads down Miller's Court. Hutchinson waits until the clock strikes 3:00 AM. leaving as the clock strikes the hour."

              It's interesting to note that she was heard say, "...You will be comfortable" as in we'll do it in a bed as opposed to out on the streets.

              Mike
              The Ripper's Haunts/JtR Suspect Dr. Francis Tumblety (Sunbury Press)
              http://www.michaelLhawley.com

              Comment


              • #8
                “ I did not see the man's face, but I noticed that he was dark. He was wearing a brown low-crowned felt hat. I think he had on a dark coat, though I am not certain. By the look of him he seemed to me a man over forty years of age. He appeared to me to be a little taller than the deceased”.

                PC William Smith saw Elizabeth with a young man opposite the club. He was described as 5 ft 7 in height, wearing a dark overcoat and a felt deerstalker hat. Interestingly, he was carrying a newspaper parcel measuring 18 inches by six inches.

                He described the man who threw the woman down as aged about 30, height 5ft 5ins, fair complexion with dark hair and a small brown moustache. A full face, broad shouldered and dressed in a dark jacket & trousers, black cap with peak, with nothing in his hands.

                The second man was aged 35; height 5ft 11 ins, with a fresh complexion and light brown hair. Dressed in a dark overcoat, old black hard felt hat with a wide brim and had a clay pipe in his hand.

                ; he described the man as "of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 7-8in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

                The man she saw she described as about 36 years old, 5ft 5ins tall with a fresh complexion and blotches on his face. He had small side-whiskers, a thick, carroty moustache and dressed in shabby dark clothes, dark overcoat and a black felt hat. He was holding a quart can of beer.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yep, most of the descriptions have the Ripper as youngish but mature, age 30-40. Of course, a moustache and such can age a young man, so 23 year old Chapman might appear 30, just as an older man, such as Tumblety, if his hair was not grey, might appear 40.

                  So, while it's by no means science, the Ripper seems to have been around 30-40.

                  Yours truly,

                  Tom Wescott

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yep, Interestingly most of the victims seem to have been estimated as much younger than their actual age?

                    Was it simply harder to gage in 1888?

                    Pirate

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      According to police sources the best witness was Joseph Lawende and he described a man -- lithe, youngish, Gentile-featured, dressed like a sailor -- who is a good, generic fit for arguably the best Ripper suspect, Montague John Druitt. For twenty years Melville Macnaghten went to great lengths to eliminate this witness [and his description] from the Edwardian public [Lawende himself apparently picked William Grant Grainger in 1895].

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I don't know if I agree with Lawende necessarily being the best witness. If Liz was indeed a Ripper victim, then probably the best witness (aside from possibly Hutchinson) is Israel Schwartz. However, that being said, the descriptions of both Schwartz's attacker of Liz and the man speaking to the woman who was presumably Eddowes do share very distinguishing characteristics. Now, if Hutchinson did, in fact, see JTR and if he was the same man who killed Liz and Cathy, then it stands to reason that JTR wore different apparel when he went out to kill. On the Double Event, we have a man who looks like a common East Ender with a rather sailor-like appearance. On the night of the kelly killing, Hutchinson describes a man who is pretty much "dressed to the nines", like a toff, although the clothing seemed to be dated and rather unclean. (My guess is he may have purchased the clothes from maybe one of the vendors in Petticoat Lane). Therefore, what I would conclude is that JTR deliberately made an effort to hide his regular appearance on the night he chose to kill. If he was, in fact, one of the suspects we have mentioned (like Druitt or Chapman or any other plausible suspect), it may show an effort to "dress down" in order to blend in with the surroundings and look like a local commoner. (e.g., perhaps Druitt, Chapman, Tumblety or whoever dressed like in a sailor get-up to appear more familar and less "out of place" with their environment).
                        I won't make any deals. I've resigned. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed,de-briefed, or numbered!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I disagree.

                          The police at the time acted as if that Lawende was the paramount witness as he was utilized for both Sadler and Grainger -- and Macnaghten carefully buried his existence in the rewrite of his Report and in his memoirs. I think he did this to protect the Druitt family, and the Yard from libel.

                          The stouter man, perhaps wearing a deerstalker, who apparently assaulted Stride was not, I don not think, the same man at all.

                          There is a report in 'The Star' -- for what this is worth -- in which the accounts can be reconciled.

                          In this version Schwartz sees the man being rough with Stride and then:

                          '... a second man came out of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forwards as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in the second man's hand ... He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red.'

                          p. 53, Connell & Evans, 'The Man Who Hunted Jack the Ripper'

                          This alleged second man, scaring off the burlier, older man who was manhandling Stride, is a better match for Lawende's 'Jack the Sailor' seen on the same night.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't know that I've ever seen Pipeman called a 'good fit' for Lawende's man before.

                            Yours truly,

                            Tom Wescott

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by JTRSickert View Post
                              I don't know if I agree with Lawende necessarily being the best witness. If Liz was indeed a Ripper victim, then probably the best witness (aside from possibly Hutchinson) is Israel Schwartz. However, that being said, the descriptions of both Schwartz's attacker of Liz and the man speaking to the woman who was presumably Eddowes do share very distinguishing characteristics. Now, if Hutchinson did, in fact, see JTR and if he was the same man who killed Liz and Cathy, then it stands to reason that JTR wore different apparel when he went out to kill. On the Double Event, we have a man who looks like a common East Ender with a rather sailor-like appearance. On the night of the kelly killing, Hutchinson describes a man who is pretty much "dressed to the nines", like a toff, although the clothing seemed to be dated and rather unclean. (My guess is he may have purchased the clothes from maybe one of the vendors in Petticoat Lane). Therefore, what I would conclude is that JTR deliberately made an effort to hide his regular appearance on the night he chose to kill. If he was, in fact, one of the suspects we have mentioned (like Druitt or Chapman or any other plausible suspect), it may show an effort to "dress down" in order to blend in with the surroundings and look like a local commoner. (e.g., perhaps Druitt, Chapman, Tumblety or whoever dressed like in a sailor get-up to appear more familar and less "out of place" with their environment).
                              or possibly worked in a Taylors sweat shop?

                              My thought has always been that the man witnessed by Schwartz (BSM) and the man witnessed by Lawende appear to be similar. As for Hutchinson who knows? his story is clearly exaggerated, but makes some sense if you time Kelly's death at 4PM and Mr Diddles .

                              Pirate
                              Last edited by Jeff Leahy; 03-05-2010, 09:37 PM.

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