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I have recently watched a documentary entitled "Jack the Ripper: Killer Revealed." The credits on this DVD give a release date of 2009 and, indeed, there is already a thread on this film on Casebook at
When I watched this I was interested by an interview with Zena Shine, who was described as a descendant of Aaron Kosminski. A search on line directed me to a recovered thread on Casebook in which Chris Phillips had posted a great deal of information about Zena Shine back in 2007. Here is what Chris wrote:
cgp100
11th September 2007, 09:31 PM
I've finally managed to clarify some of the ancestry of Zena Shine, the lady who has been suggested as a possible great niece of Aaron Kozminski.
I don't want to post any details relating to living people, but from the information about Mrs Shine on Richard Jones's DVD "Unmasking Jack the Ripper" (2005), together with data from the civil registration indexes and personal announcements in the Jewish Chronicle, it's clear that Zena Shine's mother, Tillie or Tilly, was one of at least four Kosminsky siblings:
(1) Michael, born 22 February 1896, death registered March quarter 1977.
Married, June quarter 1919, Kate Sorsky, who died 14 January 1974.
(2) Tilly or Tillie, born c. 1901, died [8?] March 1968.
Married, September quarter 1923, Nathan Saunders.
(3) Nathan (known as Nathan Kaye), born c. 1905, died [19??] August 1965.
Married Katie.
(4) Rachel, born 3 June 1906, died 23 October 1988.
Married Willie Swayne (Swerdloff).
Beyond that, we can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that these four were children of Louis or Lewis Kosminsky, a butcher who came to England around the turn of the century. This is mentioned in a letter published in the Jewish Chronicle in 2002, and written by a woman giving only her initial, her maiden name of Kosminsky, and a partial address. This is sufficient to identify her, and her rare forename matches that of one of the daughters of Michael Kosminsky.
According to the letter, the writer's grandfather, Louis Kosminsky, had to fight opposition to get into this country in the 1890s. He was a butcher and his wife kept a sweet shop in Christian Street. They scrimped and saved for the writer's father and his brothers to attend the Jews' Free School. (In fact it seems likely that Louis came to England somewhat later than this, as I haven't been able to find an entry for him in the 1901 census.)
Confirmation that the letter was indeed written by Michael's daughter comes from an entry in the Jews' Free School register (LMA/4046/C/01/002) showing the admission on 1 February 1904 of a Michael Kosminsky, born 11 May 1896, whose parent or guardian was Lewis, of 16 Newcastle Pl. Michael left the school on 13 May 1910. (Note the discrepancy of nearly 3 months between the date of birth given in the register and that above, from the death registration index.)
This is the only one of the children of Louis/Lewis who appears in the admission register (unfortunately there is a gap between 1908 and 1913, which period includes Nathan's likely date of admission).
From this I think we can be reasonably sure that Mrs Shine's grandfather was not a brother of Aaron Kozminski. I should say that from the interview on the DVD she herself struck me as perfectly genuine, but I thought her impressions had clearly been coloured by the suggestions made to her by researchers, which were ultimately based on nothing more than that her grandfather shared Aaron's surname.
Chris Phillips
This interested me as I must admit I had not heard of Zena Shine before. At the time when Chris wrote this excellent summary, I do not know if the 1911 census was yet available - I suspect not. However, I have found this branch of the Kosminsky family listed and - as in so many things to do with case - it raises some interesting questions. Chris wrote, quite rightly, that Zena's mother was Tillie Kosminsky. Tillie's father was named Lewis, a butcher, and she had siblings named Michael, Nathan and Rachel.
The family as listed in 1911 reads as follows:
75 Christian Street, Commercial Road, London
Head: Lewis Kosminsky aged 40 born Poland - Meat dealer
Wife: Betsy Kosminsky aged 39 born Poland
Children:
Michael aged 15 born Poland - Plain machiner (coats)
Esther aged 13 born Commercial Road, London
Celia aged 10 born Whitechapel
Nathan aged 6 born Whitechapel
Rachel aged 4 born Mile End
Alic (male) aged 1 born St George's
In the 1911 census there were some additional items of information that had not appeared in previous censuses. These are the number of years married, the number of children living and total number of children born. In the case of this family, six children are listed and the census return confirms six children born and six children living (i.e. no child had been born and died prior to the census). The names and ages of three of the children - Michael, Nathan and Rachel - fit exactly with Chris's notes. The youngest child, listed as Alic, was actually named Alexander and was born in 1909.
However, noticeable by her absence is Tillie Kosminsky, Zena's mother. There is a daughter of exactly the right age, but in the census return for 1911 she is listed as Celia. Are we to assume that the woman known as Tillie Kosminsky was in fact born and registered as Celia but married under the name Tillie?
If the dates and places of birth of the children listed in 1911 are accurate this would allow us to narrow down considerably when the family came to the UK.
The census return tells us that Lewis and Betsy Kosminsky had, at the time of the census, been married for 16 years which would place their marriage in or about 1895. Only their oldest child, Michael, is listed as born in Poland, in or about 1896. The next child, Esther, is listed as born in or about 1898 in the Commercial Road. That would place the family's arrival in the UK to about 1897. However, the necessary corollary of that is that the family should be listed in the 1901 census, and, to date, I have been unable to find any of the family members in 1901.
In some of the official records of events within the family the spellings of "Kosminsky" are oddly variant. However, these are the records that I have managed to find to date:
1898 Quarter 3 Mile End: birth of Esther Kosminsky
1901 Quarter 1 Whitechapel: birth of Celia Krisminsky (sic)
1909 Quarter 4 Whitechapel: birth of Alexander Kosminsky
1923 Quarter 3 Whitechapel: marriage of Tillie Kosminsky, spouse Saunders
1923 Quarter 3 Whitechapel: marriage of Nathan Saunders, spouse Kisminsky (sic)
1925 Quarter 2 Whitechapel: birth of Zena Saunders - mother's maiden name Kosminsky
1945 Quarter 3 Stepney: death of Lewis Kosminsky aged 76
Questions:
1) The birth record for Esther in 1898 would seem to confirm that the family had arrived in the UK by that time, in which case where are they in the 1901 census?
2) Are Celia Kosminsky (listed at birth as Krisminsky) and Tillie Kosminsky one and the same person?
Here is what Zena Shine actually said in the interview in the documentary I saw:
In 1988 researchers began combing the records for that elusive piece of information that might prove Kosminski's guilt once and for all. That search brought two investigators to the door of Zena Shine, who was born in the East End of London in 1925 and whose great uncle, Aaron Kosminski, was indeed committed to Colney Hatch Asylum.
Zena Shine (captioned as "Descendant: Aaron Kosminski.")
It was astonishing. There were two men knocked at the door and they said there is somebody living here who knew the Kosminsky family. They said it was a centenary or something and that the case had remained open, and they said "Do you have a relation called Kosminsky?" and I said it was my grandfather. They said "Did I know the rest of the family?" I said, "I think he had a brother," and they told me about this brother, Aron or Aaron. They said, "We think he died in Colney Hatch." Colney Hatch? You know, things began to come back, all these little stories. All the family used to talk about Colney Hatch. It was a major disgrace, the brother.
After a little while I began to understand a bit of Yiddish, and I could understand what they were talking about, a bit here and there. They used to sort of, you know, "Aron...", it was sort of very deprecating and they didn't, there was never any lengthy discussion; it was always just a reference. There was never any connection. It didn't mean anything to me. I couldn't understand the significance of anything. And when I told my brother, he was so appalled, he didn't even think it was funny. He was appalled. He said, "If that's you claim to fame then forget it. Who wants to be connected to somebody... I mean, really."
I am attaching the relevant part of the 1911 listing of the family.
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
When I watched this I was interested by an interview with Zena Shine, who was described as a descendant of Aaron Kosminski. A search on line directed me to a recovered thread on Casebook in which Chris Phillips had posted a great deal of information about Zena Shine back in 2007. Here is what Chris wrote:
cgp100
11th September 2007, 09:31 PM
I've finally managed to clarify some of the ancestry of Zena Shine, the lady who has been suggested as a possible great niece of Aaron Kozminski.
I don't want to post any details relating to living people, but from the information about Mrs Shine on Richard Jones's DVD "Unmasking Jack the Ripper" (2005), together with data from the civil registration indexes and personal announcements in the Jewish Chronicle, it's clear that Zena Shine's mother, Tillie or Tilly, was one of at least four Kosminsky siblings:
(1) Michael, born 22 February 1896, death registered March quarter 1977.
Married, June quarter 1919, Kate Sorsky, who died 14 January 1974.
(2) Tilly or Tillie, born c. 1901, died [8?] March 1968.
Married, September quarter 1923, Nathan Saunders.
(3) Nathan (known as Nathan Kaye), born c. 1905, died [19??] August 1965.
Married Katie.
(4) Rachel, born 3 June 1906, died 23 October 1988.
Married Willie Swayne (Swerdloff).
Beyond that, we can say with a reasonable degree of certainty that these four were children of Louis or Lewis Kosminsky, a butcher who came to England around the turn of the century. This is mentioned in a letter published in the Jewish Chronicle in 2002, and written by a woman giving only her initial, her maiden name of Kosminsky, and a partial address. This is sufficient to identify her, and her rare forename matches that of one of the daughters of Michael Kosminsky.
According to the letter, the writer's grandfather, Louis Kosminsky, had to fight opposition to get into this country in the 1890s. He was a butcher and his wife kept a sweet shop in Christian Street. They scrimped and saved for the writer's father and his brothers to attend the Jews' Free School. (In fact it seems likely that Louis came to England somewhat later than this, as I haven't been able to find an entry for him in the 1901 census.)
Confirmation that the letter was indeed written by Michael's daughter comes from an entry in the Jews' Free School register (LMA/4046/C/01/002) showing the admission on 1 February 1904 of a Michael Kosminsky, born 11 May 1896, whose parent or guardian was Lewis, of 16 Newcastle Pl. Michael left the school on 13 May 1910. (Note the discrepancy of nearly 3 months between the date of birth given in the register and that above, from the death registration index.)
This is the only one of the children of Louis/Lewis who appears in the admission register (unfortunately there is a gap between 1908 and 1913, which period includes Nathan's likely date of admission).
From this I think we can be reasonably sure that Mrs Shine's grandfather was not a brother of Aaron Kozminski. I should say that from the interview on the DVD she herself struck me as perfectly genuine, but I thought her impressions had clearly been coloured by the suggestions made to her by researchers, which were ultimately based on nothing more than that her grandfather shared Aaron's surname.
Chris Phillips
This interested me as I must admit I had not heard of Zena Shine before. At the time when Chris wrote this excellent summary, I do not know if the 1911 census was yet available - I suspect not. However, I have found this branch of the Kosminsky family listed and - as in so many things to do with case - it raises some interesting questions. Chris wrote, quite rightly, that Zena's mother was Tillie Kosminsky. Tillie's father was named Lewis, a butcher, and she had siblings named Michael, Nathan and Rachel.
The family as listed in 1911 reads as follows:
75 Christian Street, Commercial Road, London
Head: Lewis Kosminsky aged 40 born Poland - Meat dealer
Wife: Betsy Kosminsky aged 39 born Poland
Children:
Michael aged 15 born Poland - Plain machiner (coats)
Esther aged 13 born Commercial Road, London
Celia aged 10 born Whitechapel
Nathan aged 6 born Whitechapel
Rachel aged 4 born Mile End
Alic (male) aged 1 born St George's
In the 1911 census there were some additional items of information that had not appeared in previous censuses. These are the number of years married, the number of children living and total number of children born. In the case of this family, six children are listed and the census return confirms six children born and six children living (i.e. no child had been born and died prior to the census). The names and ages of three of the children - Michael, Nathan and Rachel - fit exactly with Chris's notes. The youngest child, listed as Alic, was actually named Alexander and was born in 1909.
However, noticeable by her absence is Tillie Kosminsky, Zena's mother. There is a daughter of exactly the right age, but in the census return for 1911 she is listed as Celia. Are we to assume that the woman known as Tillie Kosminsky was in fact born and registered as Celia but married under the name Tillie?
If the dates and places of birth of the children listed in 1911 are accurate this would allow us to narrow down considerably when the family came to the UK.
The census return tells us that Lewis and Betsy Kosminsky had, at the time of the census, been married for 16 years which would place their marriage in or about 1895. Only their oldest child, Michael, is listed as born in Poland, in or about 1896. The next child, Esther, is listed as born in or about 1898 in the Commercial Road. That would place the family's arrival in the UK to about 1897. However, the necessary corollary of that is that the family should be listed in the 1901 census, and, to date, I have been unable to find any of the family members in 1901.
In some of the official records of events within the family the spellings of "Kosminsky" are oddly variant. However, these are the records that I have managed to find to date:
1898 Quarter 3 Mile End: birth of Esther Kosminsky
1901 Quarter 1 Whitechapel: birth of Celia Krisminsky (sic)
1909 Quarter 4 Whitechapel: birth of Alexander Kosminsky
1923 Quarter 3 Whitechapel: marriage of Tillie Kosminsky, spouse Saunders
1923 Quarter 3 Whitechapel: marriage of Nathan Saunders, spouse Kisminsky (sic)
1925 Quarter 2 Whitechapel: birth of Zena Saunders - mother's maiden name Kosminsky
1945 Quarter 3 Stepney: death of Lewis Kosminsky aged 76
Questions:
1) The birth record for Esther in 1898 would seem to confirm that the family had arrived in the UK by that time, in which case where are they in the 1901 census?
2) Are Celia Kosminsky (listed at birth as Krisminsky) and Tillie Kosminsky one and the same person?
Here is what Zena Shine actually said in the interview in the documentary I saw:
In 1988 researchers began combing the records for that elusive piece of information that might prove Kosminski's guilt once and for all. That search brought two investigators to the door of Zena Shine, who was born in the East End of London in 1925 and whose great uncle, Aaron Kosminski, was indeed committed to Colney Hatch Asylum.
Zena Shine (captioned as "Descendant: Aaron Kosminski.")
It was astonishing. There were two men knocked at the door and they said there is somebody living here who knew the Kosminsky family. They said it was a centenary or something and that the case had remained open, and they said "Do you have a relation called Kosminsky?" and I said it was my grandfather. They said "Did I know the rest of the family?" I said, "I think he had a brother," and they told me about this brother, Aron or Aaron. They said, "We think he died in Colney Hatch." Colney Hatch? You know, things began to come back, all these little stories. All the family used to talk about Colney Hatch. It was a major disgrace, the brother.
After a little while I began to understand a bit of Yiddish, and I could understand what they were talking about, a bit here and there. They used to sort of, you know, "Aron...", it was sort of very deprecating and they didn't, there was never any lengthy discussion; it was always just a reference. There was never any connection. It didn't mean anything to me. I couldn't understand the significance of anything. And when I told my brother, he was so appalled, he didn't even think it was funny. He was appalled. He said, "If that's you claim to fame then forget it. Who wants to be connected to somebody... I mean, really."
I am attaching the relevant part of the 1911 listing of the family.
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
Attached Files
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