Did Astracan kill Mary Kelly

[richardnunweek]

Hello everyone,
Whilst I appreciate that many of you do not believe the 'Lying lies of George' , and reject Hutchinson as a credible witness, the fact remains that we have his account in black and white as historical evidence.
I will put aside my many theories, which include Barnett, and Maxwells market porter, as possible candidates, not to mention a few others, and take a look at the possibilty that Hutchinson[ whoever he may be] actually saw the killer of Kelly.
We have the oral history account, that she was planning to go to the lord mayors show on the 9th November, and we have the description of the man that apparently accosted the victim , witnessed by GH, and we have his opinion that the person was dressed rather dapper for the neighbourhood, and it was because of this he was attentive.
We also have an account of the meeting between kelly and Astracan, which could imply knowledge of each other, the laughter, and the hand around the shoulder, not to mention the kiss in Dorset street, we have the alleged conversation 'I have lost my hankerchief', and the handing of one to Mary.
Did this man on a previous occasion give her a gift of one I ask?, and he handed her another.
I therefore offer the following scenerio.
This murder was premeditated, kelly had been in the company of this man on previous occassions, and they were aquainted enough for him to share a drink or two, and possibly a gift, he knew that her lover Barnett had since left her accomodation, and she had mentioned to him that she would love to be able to go and see the lord mayors show, but she had no one to go with.
On hearing that he mentioned that he would take her, and would call on her early on the morning of the 9th around 9am.
Mjk therefore aware of this decided to cut short her normal last visit to another pub on her way home, in order to keep herself as sober as possible for the next day. it was whilst making her way home that she came across a man , that has become known as 'Blotchy' , and she invited him back for a song , and possible favours, as
a] she hated to return to millers court alone, since she had a bad dream during october.
b] To aquire a few pennies to spend at the show the following morning.
After Blotchy left , kelly alone in her room, decided to try and obtain a few more pence, venturing out again, and she walks towards a figure she knew , one George Hutchinson, and she asks him for money, after saying he had none, she walks on , and is approached by Astracan, and after a second or two, realizes that this was the man she knew , the man that was going to take her to the show.
'Well what have we here my dear' all the finery'?
They both laugh aloud.
I have been trying to find a place to sleep, but all the lodgings are full, so i was going to wait until daybreak to call on you, I was going to call on you , but it was late, can I stay with you?
Alright my luv , you will be comftable' was the reply.
The truth of the matter was Astracan was waiting to call on kelly, but she was approaching him, so what a slice of luck.
She wanted to go to the show, and she happens to meet up with a man dressed in his very best, that she feels at ease with , and she without hesitation offers him back to her room, even though she apparently was rather paronoid about the recent murders.
So the question is Casebook, was Astracan Kellys killer, and was the eve / morning of the 9th november a premeditated act.?
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

Hutchinson and time

Hello Richard. This all sounds so inviting.

The first time I read Hutchinson's testimony, I scratched my head and asked, "What the devil was he waiting on for 45 minutes? Was he sweet on Kelly?"

A satisfactory answer here would help make Astrakhan look much better as a suspect.

Any ideas about Hutchinson's motive for the great time expenditure?

The best.
LC

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

I have been trying to find a place to sleep, but all the lodgings are full, so i was going to wait until daybreak to call on you, I was going to call on you , but it was late, can I stay with you?

It just isn't plausible to envisage an opulently and ostentatiously dressed man looking for lodgings in somewhere like Whitechapel or Spitalfields, especially if his overall appearance just happened to correspond with popular perception as to what the ripper might look like: sinister, Jewish, outsider, possibly well-dressed by virtue of his medical credentials etc etc. It's just too convenient. If someone told me they had seen the Loch Ness monster - slimy, green, two humps, wearing a tartan scarf and chewing a thistle, I'd be just as sceptical. I'd think, hang on, this is far too close to the generic comic book perception of Nessie's appearance. Something's terribly wrong here.

And the same is true of Astrakhan man.

I don't believe Astrakhan killed Kelly.

So courting controversy once again, I'd suggest that maybe, just maybe, Hutchinson made him up.

All the best,
Ben

[celticsun]

Possibe reasons

Hello Richard. This all sounds so inviting.


Any ideas about Hutchinson's motive for the great time expenditure?

The best.
LC

Hi LC,

This is not my own thinking, but here are 3 reasons that make sense to me.

1) He may have been waiting for Astracan to leave to get some money off Kelly.

2) He may have been waiting for Astracan to leave so he could stay with Kelly for the night as it was cold.

3) He may have been waiting to rob Astracan.

Sincerely,

Celticsun

[richardnunweek]

Hi Folks,
We dont want this to end up a revised Hutchinson thread do we?
If we take Hutch at his word , and who are we to doubt, then he was simply waiting there as curiosity..
Ben.
I was attempting to use a scenerio, which would appear to fit what little information we have, I admit it was rather tonque-in-cheek to suggest that the local lodgings were full, however he may have said something to Mary along the lines of 'I was intending to find lodgings , however with hindsight i am a bit overdresssed for that, they may think I am Jack... which caused both of them to laugh.
If I am correct was a couple not seen in Dorset street, in the early hours of the 9th[ the female alleged to have been kelly] laughing at the reward poster near the court entrance.
I would take an educated guess that many men said to there date 'Mayby I am Jack ..just for jolly.
But in the case of MjK. it proberly was.
Regards Richard.

[harry]

The thing that has always intrigued me as far as Hutchinson is concerned,is that to him(Hutchinson)it was a surprise at seeing such a well dressed man,and this seems to be his reason for following.To me the greatest surprise would have been seeing anyone go with her to her room,for wasn't she living there with Barnett?To have affected no surprise of this ,appears to me that Hutchinson was quite aware of Kelly's domestic situation,that she and Barnett had split and she was there alone that night.Knowledge that a potential killer would find rather usefull.That Hutchinson makes no mention whatsoever of those domestic arrangements,and him being a long time friend appears to me rather odd.It might have aided his story to suggest he hung around fearfull for her safety,as he knew she was living alone.Did he intentionally avoid the subject for some reason?

[Ben]

however he may have said something to Mary along the lines of 'I was intending to find lodgings , however with hindsight i am a bit overdresssed for that, they may think I am Jack... which caused both of them to laugh.

Yes, but would she really laugh at that, Rich?

Wouldn't she wonder why he was so well-dressed and yet searching for lodgings in the well known grotspot that was the Northern end of Commercial Street, and this and the height of the ripper scare when tales of sinister Jews and black packages had already been doing the rounds in the papers? And what if we look at it from a hypothetical Jackstrakhan point of view? Is it likely that he would attire himself in that fashion, with those accessories, when it couldn't have escaped his notice that his present physical particulars happened to coincide very neatly with some of the "bogeyman" images that had already been associated with the ripper?

Hi Celticsun,

Your three options are certainly possibles, but taking them in order, I'd have to wonder:

1) Why didn't he retrieve the money, or at least mention it, at the initial (alleged) Commercial Street encounter?

2) Setting aside the issue of his 13-mile hike to London in the certainty that he would not be permitted entry to his "usual" lodgings without a pass, there was at least a lodging house kitchen directly behind him which offered respite from a cold, if not a bed.

3) Possibly, but one has to wonder why he'd give the game away, if that were the case, by mentioning such glittering accessories to the police.

Best regards,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hi Harry,
Just because Hutchinson by his own admission knew the woman kelly, and occasionaly helped her, does not mean that he was a client, neither does it imply that he would have known all of her room habits, and spouse circumstances, he simply told the police that he believed it strange that such a well dressed man was in the area at that time, he never indicated to the police that Astracan was in any way sinister, he simply followed out of curiosity, and I fail to see any suspicious intent in doing that.
We simply must not lose track of this thread. which is named 'Did Astracan kill Mary Kelly?
My opinion is if the police doctors were right of T.O.D then almost certainly, but if they were wrong then Maxwells sighting would be relevant.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

he never indicated to the police that Astracan was in any way sinister

He couldn't have done, really.

Had he told the police that he entertained suspicions about the man, they would immeditaly have wondered why he simply loitered on the opposite side of the street without enquiring within or alerting a policeman.

Cheers,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hello Ben.
If hear-say is correct, and Kelly wanted to attend the Lord mayors show the following morning , and If the man dressed in Astracan was the person who had arranged to take her, then I would suggest that he could have said that.
As for the laughter , I would say that it could also derive from Mary seeing this man in his sunday best that sparked of a comment which brought on laughter.
The strangest aspect of that meeting[ alleged] was [a] Kelly having intentions to go to the Lord mayors show.[b] meeting a man, who not only was dressed for the occassion, but gave off a instant trust to Mary , so much so, that the normal paronoid woman ,walked back to her room , the man with his arm on her shoulder, and a kiss in Dorset street to boot, before allowing this starnger into the darkness of her sordid liitle room.
I would suggest that she knew this person, and if so, the murder was premeditated, and the killer gained instant trust in his unsuspecting victim.
Regards Richard.

[kensei]

I will put aside my many theories, which include Barnett, and Maxwells market porter, as possible candidates, not to mention a few others, and take a look at the possibilty that Hutchinson[ whoever he may be] actually saw the killer of Kelly

Whoever Hutchinson may be- I think that Christopher Scott did an admirable job in his book "Will the Real Mary Kelly...?" of establishing through a search of public records who our popular character of George Hutchinson probably was (though not certainly), that being George William Topping Hutchinson, listed in 1901 as being 35 years old, employed as a plumber, with a wife named Florence and two young sons, 13 years after the Whitechapel murders. That would make him just 22 at the time of Kelly's murder. I know that when I was 22 I still had a lot of maturing to do, and was prone to many flights of romantic fancy.

My thoughts on what happened have been challenged before and no doubt will be again. Yes, I think Hutch was "sweet on" Kelly, that he had known her for some time as a friend and had a crush on her. Yes, I think Astrakan Man killed Kelly and was Jack the Ripper. I think that after having been glimpsed by a few witnesses at the prior murder sites dressed in his usual getup of a "dark overcoat and deerstalker or peaked cap," and after having become the most hunted criminal in the world, he had changed his appearance to that of Astrakan. I'm well aware of the arguments that say that such a disguise would have drawn more attention to him in the East End, not less. But this is a deranged mind we're talking about, not a rational one. His decisions do not have to make sense, and he was probably damned lucky not to have been knifed to death himself by some two-bit mugger on the streets of Spitalfields in that getup. How ironic would that have been?

I don't know whether Astrakan was someone Kelly had met before, or whether he had a charm to him and just said something to her immediately upon their chance meeting in Hutch's sight that put her at ease and made her laugh. She was, by witness' statements, quite drunk that night, and in a giddy state it might not have taken much to make her laugh. With her state of drunkenness and how late she was seen to be still up, it seems very unlikely that she would have been able to rouse herself in time to go to the Lord Mayor's show in the morning no matter how much she had wanted to. Too bad Hutch couldn't hear the entire conversation between her and Mr. A. But I do feel that Hutch followed them and watched Miller's Court for as long as he did because of his feelings for Mary Jane, wanting to look out for her safety, and also possibly wanting/hoping to just maybe hook up with her himself if things went his way, thoughts he had probably entertained for a long time. After 45 minutes of watching on this particular night, he gave up.

George Hutchinson and Joseph Barnett- two very unfortunate characters in my view, one a lovelorn friend who still had a lot of growing up to do, the other a frustrated boyfriend who was "on a break" from Mary Jane, not officially broken up. Both of them ended up getting accused of being the world's most notorious serial killer. And Astrakan Man- I think he was a one-time appearance, a disguise worn by Jack the Ripper. But I know that theory is not popular.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Kensei,
Thank you for a excellent post. I am with you one hundred percent on the identification of GH, and yes he was only two years kellys junior, one tends to forget just how young Mary Kelly was.
I also agree that he fancied her, unless of cause he was a extremely charitable person, he proberly was good to her on a few occasions when he had money, but that is not to say that he used her as a prostitute.
People have suggested that he was waiting for this man to leave so he could spent the rest of the night in her room, I do not subscribe to that opinion, I believe he simply relayed the truth , waited forty five minutes and left, to doss around until 6am,. when his lodgings became avaliable.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Kensei,
I meant to add in my post, that I disagree somewhat about the innocence of both Josephs, I would not dismiss either one of them at this stage, but Astracan is the obvious.
Richard.

[Ben]

If hear-say is correct, and Kelly wanted to attend the Lord mayors show the following morning , and If the man dressed in Astracan was the person who had arranged to take her

Again, highly implausible.

Why, if the Lord Mayor's Show was the following morning, should he turn up dressed for the occasion at 2.00am in the morning, in a dismal location, in dismal weather conditions at the height of the ripper scare, with a mug-me gold watch on ostentatious display and a black parcel of potentially knife-shaped dimensions? There just aren't the ingredients there for giving off "instant trust" to Mary, let alone that of the over-zealous wannabe vigilantees and muggers who like gold items but don't like suspicious-looking surly Jewish "toffs". Could the Astrakhan man really have suspected otherwise? Surely he'd want to minimize the chances of attracting interest of the worst kind from anyone else?

If the meeting was pre-arranged, that's even less probable. Kelly could have blabbed about the meeting - and the identity of the individual - to all and sundry. "I'm being picked up in the small hours to go to the Lord Mayor's Show with immaculately-dressed, wealthy Jewish looking bloke", might have raised a few eyebrows as well as alarm bells.

[The Good Michael]

I think Barnett, Kelly, Fleming, and Hutchinson all would have known each other, along with Venturney and Harvey, just by virtue of being in the same area and in similar financial circumstances. They probably all picked hops in season, and vied with and against each other for whatever came their way. This would have included Astrakhan Man (if he existed) because he would have been fair game for each and every one of them.

Cheers

Mike