Stealing Jacks Thunder?

[dixon9]

Looking at the double event,if 'Jack' was not the killer of Long Liz,could he have gone out to reap his vengeance on Catherine(or first he bumped into) because another was stealing his thunder?

[Sam Flynn]

An interesting idea, Dixon, although I doubt that the news would have travelled quite that quickly, even in the East End, at that time of night - even PC Long, on his Whitechapel beat, hadn't heard of any murder (never mind two) until he reported to the police station with Eddowes' apron.

[dixon9]

yes sam,that was the flaw in my little idea.

[perrymason]

yes sam,that was the flaw in my little idea.

I think Dixon a more probable event caused by a murder catalyst that night, (if Jack didnt kill Liz Stride....which I personally believe is the case).....is the placement of a piece of crime scene evidence from a murder Jack likely did commit beside a message that seems to me to suggest that Jews perhaps should have been blamed for Strides murder.

As we know however, on that particular night, "The Jewes/Juwes are the Men that will not be blamed for nothing".

Cheers Mate

[dixon9]

very interesting Perry

Thanks

Dixon9
still learning

[caz]

Hi Perry,

When and how do you imagine Kate's killer would have been given the details of Liz's murder, if he wasn't personally involved? Would he not have been doing his level best to avoid people after being up to his elbows in God knows what in Mitre Square?

Love,

Caz
X

[perrymason]

Hi Perry,

When and how do you imagine Kate's killer would have been given the details of Liz's murder, if he wasn't personally involved? Would he not have been doing his level best to avoid people after being up to his elbows in God knows what in Mitre Square?

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz,

I like that we are being cordial lately....hope it keeps up...anyway, I would imagine in the almost 70 minutes that elapsed after the Mitre Square event news of both murders would have made its way across the East End...all we need is one person from either event after the murder, that is not a policeman, to tell one other person.... and you'd have a wildfire of rumor across the streets there.

I figure that as much as 70 minutes could mean that the placement of the apron was intentionally to misdirect as far as escape routes, that it would have allowed for him to place the "takings" in spirits in some bolt hole nearby....cleaned his hands, maybe changed a Coat or Jacket due to bloodstained cuffs, and headed back out to actually go to his home. If he wrote the message as well, then that means he had chalk either conveniently or intentionally....thats not a huge hurdle....chalk was used by every shopkeeper, every tailor, most butchers, builders, teachers, ...a myriad of occupations. So...a killer had some chalk on them? Thats a big deal?

Cheers Caz, all the best.

[Sam Flynn]

If he wrote the message as well, then that means he had chalk either conveniently or intentionally....thats not a huge hurdle....chalk was used by every shopkeeper, every tailor, most butchers, builders, teachers, ...a myriad of occupations. So...a killer had some chalk on them? Thats a big deal?

It isn't, Mike - but, by the same token, it follows that many, many, many people carried chalk about their person in the LVP and that one of many, many, many different kinds of people could have written that graffito.

[perrymason]

It isn't, Mike - but, by the same token, it follows that many, many, many people carried chalk about their person in the LVP and that one of many, many, many different kinds of people could have written that graffito.

Granted Sam,......therefore suggesting to us that we need to review the location and the circumstances of its discovery to assess its potential as evidence relating to the Ripper cases, and its probable life span prior to its discovery.

That last bit refers to the fact that it seems probable if the senior assessment of the message was at all accurate, that the message was not there during daylight. Many Jewish men would pass through there to go home to the Model Dwellings that night....I believe the ethnicity blend in those dwellings was almost 100 % Jewish.

I think that little point gets forgotten when wondering if someone other than the man that left the apron section had written it spitefully or casually.

If Jack didnt write it....and it was written after dark or at dusk that same night, it seems to me that the chances are slim to none that Jack would accidentally find it and toss his apron by it, and secondly that it would so easily fit the known data concerning at least one of the 2 murders that night.

I think coincidence in murder investigations is hardly ever just that.

Cheers Sam

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

What do you mean when you say the message fits the known data of one of the murders?

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

What do you mean when you say the message fits the known data of one of the murders?

c.d.

If you take the message literally, assuming that the killer would allude to facts rather than spelling them out....as he does by leaving the apron section alluding to Kates murderer....then....

...."The Juewes/Jewes/Juwes are the Men that will not be blamed for nothing"...could easily refer to the Jewish men at 40 Berner Street, who immediately upon calling for help proclaimed "another" murder had been committed, in essence, blaming the Unfortunate killer at large for her death.

Since they are the only people on site, and they are the only people who give an accounting of the yard status, the discovery and the timing, they were in a position to pass blame onto someone from outside their organization and location.

I think thats one possible reason Jack may have written the message where he did......to tell the Jews what he knew, not the Police or the Public. He knew he didnt kill her, and where she was found.

I dont feel that the above is a reach...in fact I believe it makes some sense IF Jack didnt kill Liz.

Cheers cd

[Sam Flynn]

That last bit refers to the fact that it seems probable if the senior assessment of the message was at all accurate, that the message was not there during daylight. Many Jewish men would pass through there to go home to the Model Dwellings that night....I believe the ethnicity blend in those dwellings was almost 100 % Jewish.

That's not to say that they'd have said anything about the graffito after it had been erased, Mike - why should they? And, if they didn't volunteer the information, I can't see that the police would have been too keen to squeeze the information out of them. "What did you do last night?", or "Did you see any strangers in the neighbourhood between the hours of 1 and 2?", were the likely lines of enquiry... can't see much of a priority being put on "Did you notice any writing in the doorway?"

I think that little point gets forgotten when wondering if someone other than the man that left the apron section had written it spitefully or casually.

Sadly, that's not something we can ever be certain about. Even if we could, the matter of authorship is surely the key question - not the author's mood.

it seems to me that the chances are slim to none that Jack would accidentally find it and toss his apron by it

All Jack did was duck into a doorway which might have contained any number of things, or nothing at all. Would we feel compelled to exercise our feverish imagination if, instead of the "Goulston Street Graffito", the police found the apron near the "Goulston Street Orange Peel" or the "Goulston Street Puddle of Piss"? Such things are found in tenement doorways all the time - as, indeed, are graffiti.

[c.d.]

I'm not clear as to whether it was generally believed by people that the Whitechapel murderer was Jewish prior to the discovery of the apron or if that was ever a common belief. Can someone enlighten me?

c.d.

[perrymason]

Sam Flynn.....you are a champion of the concept of Coincidence.

All the best G

[Sam Flynn]

Sam Flynn.....you are a champion of the concept of Coincidence.

Thanks, Mike. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that, after having studied statistics for three years at university, "coincidence" spooks me less than it does most people.