The Statements of Morris Eagle and Mrs. Diemschutz

[c.d.]

Both Morris Eagle and Mrs. Diemschutz stated that despite the singing going on in the club at the time, they both felt that they would have heard any screams from the yard. The windows in the club were open and the side door, close to the kitchen, had been half open. Yet they heard nothing. Is there any way to account for this? I am assuming for the sake of argument that the BS man was Liz's killer. How did he get her from the street where she was last seen by Schwartz into the yard where she was killed without anyone hearing her scream? Here are some possible scenarios:

1. The singing from the club did drown out any screams that Liz might have made. This would seem the the simplest and most logical answer. But since this explanation would seem so obvious why did Eagle and Mrs. Diemschutz make their statements?

2. For whatever reason, Liz did not cry out possibly because she was frozen with fear.

3. Liz went with the BS man voluntarily believing that he was simply another client. Why she would do this after being thrown to the ground could be explained by it being accidental (Liz tripped) or unintentional by the BS man. He apologises profusely and offers her even more money in order to placate her. The problem I have with this is that we also have the whole Lipski incident occurring at the same time. The BS man gives every indication of a violent nature. Assuming that Liz was aware of the deaths of Tabram, Polly and Annie, would she want to go off into a dark corner with him after what had just happened?

4. Liz believed that she was simply going to be robbed and did not fear for her life until it was too late. If the BS man told her that he was going to rob her why didn't he just do it on the street? Would Liz have volunteered to hand over her money on the street refusing to go back into the yard? Would it have occurred to her that the BS man was committing a crime (robbery) after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man and that he therefore probably had much more sinister intentions? Even if he is brandishing a knife and telling her to go back into the yard she still has time to scream.

5. Liz is pulled into the yard by the BS man. He has his hand over her mouth so she cannot scream or he is dragging her by her scarf and cutting off her air. This scenario (which is what I think happened) then brings up the whole cachous issue. The little packet of cachous has already survived Liz being thrown to the ground if we believe that she had them in her hand at the time. If the BS man has his hand over her mouth or was choking her with her scarf, would it not have been an instinctive response for Liz to try to pry his hand away? Her only chance of survival at this point would be to try to scream and hope that someone rushes out from the club. Some have suggested that Liz had her hand in a fist thus protecting the cachous. But try this experiment -- put your left hand over your mouth. Make a fist with your right hand and try to pry your left hand from your mouth. It can't be done. You need to form a claw with your right hand in order to pry the fingers from your left hand. The same would be true if she were being strangled with her scarf. She would need to form a claw with her hand and try to pull the scarf away from her neck. Yet the cachous remained intact in her hand.

5. The BS man was not her killer. She felt no danger at the time she was killed and thus no screams and the cachous remained intact in her hand.

Comments?

c.d.

[c.d.]

I made a mistake in numbering. The last scenario obviously should be number 6.

c.d.

[The Good Michael]

CD,

I like the idea about Stride's fall being an accident. If the Lipski thing was just a reaction to Schwartz being a gawker, Schwartz' memory could have easily included a harmless fall as being more menacing considering what was being projected at him by BS.

Anything is possible and many things seem probable.

Cheers,

Mike

[c.d.]

Hi Mike,

If Liz's fall was accidental, what motivation does the BS man have for killing her? If it was anger, he has hidden it well so that Liz does not pick up on it.

Schwartz considered the BS man to be enough of a threat that he ran off.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

If Schwartz is to be believed, then Liz did cry 'no, no', albeit not too loudly. And let's not forget that BS Man yelled 'Lipski', and this also was not heard by Eagle or Mrs. D.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[perrymason]

Since Liz has something in her hands that indicates she wasnt anticipating any struggle with anyone, and her scarf is suspected of being grabbed and twisted by the killer...perhaps while she is being cut and falling...."no,no"..or any exclamation might be brief and barely audible. She may have been choked and cut simultaneously which would preclude her vocalizing at all.

Morris Eagle and Mrs D, like all the club members themselves onsite, had understandable reasons for making statements that show the Club being unconnected to the murder.... either as a source for the killer or for a witness to what transpired in the yard. Whether these were also accurate statements remains a mystery.

There are few witnesses on Berner that can be considered without motivation to fabricate details,....Fanny is one. PC Smith and James Brown are others.

Best regards

[The Good Michael]

If Liz's fall was accidental, what motivation does the BS man have for killing her? If it was anger, he has hidden it well so that Liz does not pick up on it.

Motivation? He had intention of killing her because he was JTR. That's certainly enough motivation. He could have played the charmer to get her into position inside the gate, but she fell first. I imagine a guy like that could keep the charm on for one person while turning on his 'menacing' for another. Obviously, I'm just saying it's a possibility. People often remember what makes sense to them and not what actually happened. That's how a normal mind works. Schwartz could have been putting two and two together, only this time the answer was 23.

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

This is what I think must be considered when discussing the silence of the Stride deed. Here is what William Marshall said at the inquest, about the man he saw with Stride at approxiamtely an hour before her death:
Coroner: Did you notice how he was dressed? - In a black cut-away coat and dark trousers. 

Coroner: Was he young or old? - Middle-aged he seemed to be.
Coroner: Was he wearing a hat? - No, a cap. 

Coroner: What sort of a cap? - A round cap, with a small peak. It was something like what a sailor would wear. 

Coroner: What height was he? - About 5ft. 6in. 
[Coroner] Was he thin or stout? - Rather stout. 

Coroner: Did he look well dressed? - Decently dressed.
Coroner: What class of man did he appear to be? - I should say he was in business, and did nothing like hard work. 

Coroner: Not like a dock labourer? - No. 

Coroner: Nor a sailor? - No. 

Coroner: Nor a butcher? - No. 

Coroner: A clerk? - He had more the appearance of a clerk.

...and this is how Schwartz described HIS man:
age, about 30; ht, 5ft 5in[s]; comp., fair; hair, dark; small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered; dress, dark jacket and trousers, black cap with peak, and nothing in his hands.
According to the Star, he also added that the man was respectably dressed.
So what do we have here? We have, within the hour, Stride in the company of two men, both middle-aged, both on the stout, broad side, both wearing dark jackets, both wearing dark trousers, both sporting peaked caps and both having a respectable appearance.
It is pretty obvious that these descriptions may well be of the exact same man, since there are no differences mentioned whatsoever in clothing, appearance or physical stature!
We know that Marshalls man went off with Stride in the direction of Ellen Street (away from where Stride was found murdered an hour later). But after that, we loose sight of him. If he is the very same man that appears on the stage later, coming from a northerly direction, what happened inbetween?

Did Stride tell him that she did not want to see him any more on the stroll towards Ellen Street? Did that make him search out a pub in the vicinity of Berner Street, and then, slightly drunk, go looking for Stride – and revenge?

Or did she instead tell him that she would give up prostitution for his sake (”You would say anything but your prayers...!), making him seek out a pub to celebrate in – only to stumble upon her soliciting later on?

Thatīs anybodys guess – but the main factor here is that CD has forgotten a very real possibility when listing his six reasons for the silence: Stride may have known her killer very well – he may even have been her lover. In such a case she would not start yelling. She would keep her voice down, even when thrown (or falling) to the ground, and she would do the same when discussing with the man inside the yard. Plus she would feel comfortable enough to bring out her cachous in such a situation.

The best, all!
Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Some have suggested that Liz had her hand in a fist thus protecting the cachous. But try this experiment -- put your left hand over your mouth. Make a fist with your right hand and try to pry your left hand from your mouth. It can't be done.

Just to be clear, my cachous-in-fist hypothesis was not dependent on her attacker's hand being placed over mouth. I have reasoned, and Stride may have reasoned similarly, that fending off your attacker with a few admittedly forlorn punches was more of an immediate priority than screaming to any appreciable volume.

Of your suggested explanations, options 1, 4 and 5 seem reasonable, 2 a little less so, 3 a little less still, and 6 being the least credible to my mind.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

I believe I have some ideas as to why..... if Schwartz wasnt lying,.... BSM likely killed Liz, and was probably Michael Kidney.

-Liz was known by Michael to see other men
-He suggests he believes that he was liked "better" than any of them by Liz....to me suggesting he has a warped view of her affection for him
-They split after a long relationship for reasons unknown
-Liz Stride may well be waiting for a Jewish Socialist inside the club, possibly for a date
-She has an ankle length skirt, flowers on her breast, cashous to sweeten her mouth, and she is loitering near the club but not obviously soliciting. She chose not to spend 4d she had in her hand on her usual bed, and she intimated she would not return there that night and she did not know when she would return.
-For all we know Liz Stride may have been seeing this man before or just after splitting with Kidney..it may be the cause of their breakup
-Which would aggravate any anti-semetic feelings he may have had, as did many 1888 East Enders.
-Which would explain why he approaches her and tries to pull her away from the club
-The anti-semetism and his anger at a Jew for stealing Liz comes out when he shouts "Lipski"
-Liz remains in his presence while Schwartz leaves....is that due to the fact she knows this man?
-The cashous in her hand in death suggest she did not anticipate immediate danger from her assailant....Kidney as BSM would allow for that.
-The single cut shows intent to kill,... only.
-Kidneys behavior in the next few days and at the Inquest is somewhat bizarre and incoherent.

How about this....Kidney is BSM, kills Liz, heads through Goulston .....decides to write something accusing Jews of evading blame near the entrance to Model Homes occupied almost solely by Jews, ...maybe because in his mind he blames Jews for him having to kill Liz, or for stealing her from him which made him kill her..,...and someone later on leaves a bloodied piece of cloth by the message to have it seem that the killer from Mitre Square came through there on his way home and probably wrote the message,...showing that he is from the East End.... as its North East for him from Mitre Square. Which then suggests Liz Stride the East End girl killed the same night was by him too, as we can say he was out killing that night.

Whose to say that Jack left the apron?
Whose to say that someone didnt supply evidence that suggested the killer was from the East End and may have lived near the Model Homes....a predominantly Jewish neighborhood?

Who had been saying that the killer was a Polish Jew from the East End? How would this night help that supposition along?

Cheers all.

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

An interesting hypothesis to be sure. However, if it had been Kidney, I expect that he would have been drunk. I would expect a loud argument to ensue as well as a few hard slaps to the face as the argument escalated. I also don't see Liz willing to go back into the yard voluntarily. Why should she? If Kidney only wanted to talk why wouldn't the street be good enough? She knew he had a temper.

I also believe that the police checked out Kidney and were satisfied that he was not the murderer. (My opinion only!)

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

An interesting hypothesis to be sure. However, if it had been Kidney, I expect that he would have been drunk. I would expect a loud argument to ensue as well as a few hard slaps to the face as the argument escalated. I also don't see Liz willing to go back into the yard voluntarily. Why should she? If Kidney only wanted to talk why wouldn't the street be good enough? She knew he had a temper.

I also believe that the police checked out Kidney and were satisfied that he was not the murderer. (My opinion only!)

c.d.

Hi cd,

Well, we do have Schwartz saying BSM was weaving when he walked, and we do have bruises that may be the result of hard pokes in the chest by BSM, ....BSM could have grabbed Liz's arm and taken her into the yard, if it was empty...and she may not have resisted because as I suggest, she didnt see her Michael harming her out in public...BSM was seen grabbing her, that would explain why he then wanted privacy to berate her more...

She has her back to the club wall, he is looming over her just like Browns suspect was over that woman, and poking her in the chest, she gets abusive verbally, shoves him aside, walks towards the open gates, and her grabs her scarf in anger,......2 seconds later she is dying at his feet, her neck near the gutter. He leaves. A few minutes later, Diemshutz pulls in.

Maybe Kidney is the man seen cleaning his hands in the laneway soon thereafter.

It just occurs to me cd that if Schwartz was accurate, even if a member himself and even if the altercation actually takes place inside the yard....Kidney might have killed Liz out of Jealousy in that yard....and the Club had to manage the details to avoid suspicion falling on them...cause none of them, aside from Schwartz if he was a member, saw Kidney there.....so for all Diemshutz knew, it could have been one of the men in attendance.

Best regards cd

[richardnunweek]

Hi Michael,
There is sketch of michael Kidney, and he certainly does not give an appearance of being broad shouldered..
I would imagine the Ripper to have been somewhat short and stocky, which if viewed from the rear would give a broadshoulderd appearance.
I have never flinched from my belief that Stride was the work of the Ripper, and I have always believed that her killer attempted to entice her away from the populated club to a more secluded spot, and when she resisted, and was seen by two others close by, and knowing that she could identify him[ she may well have known him by name] decided to force her into Dutfields yard, and violently cut her throat, before the two witnesses could possibly have summoned a police officer.
Because of his lack of full satisfaction , he made his way to the area where a prostitute or two may well be.
Why was he in the area of Berner street?
He possibly had been eyeing up Stride whilst she was in the Bricklayers arms? and followed them to the working mens club, clearly her beau had left her waiting there whilst possibly he went into the club for a moment.
But I certainly do not make Kidney a suspect.
Regards Richard.

[c.d.]

Hi Richard,

You say that Liz might have been able to identify him by name and this required that he kill her. But identify him as who? The man who pushed her to the ground? Hardly a hanging offense. Or do you mean identify him as the Ripper? If so, how would Liz have come by that knowledge?

c.d.

[Fisherman]

Richard writes:

"There is sketch of michael Kidney, and he certainly does not give an appearance of being broad shouldered.."

But that sketch, Richard, was depicting Kidney from the side! I would settle for sloping shoulders (if the artist was correct to begin with - itīs a drawing and not a photo), but sloping shoulders may be broad shoulders too.
Thatīs not to say that I favour Kidney for either the role as Strides killer or the Ripper, but we certainly cannot rule him out.

The best,
Fisherman

The best,
Fisherman