What happened to the evidence?

[Frank]

Hello,

does anybody know what happened to all the evidence of the Whitechapel murders? Like the clothes of the victims of the bloody piece of apron found in Goulston Street?

Do they still exist in some police vaults? If so, then maybe analyses of the DNA could be done. Maybe the ripper left some hair...

Best regards,
Frank

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello,

does anybody know what happened to all the evidence of the Whitechapel murders? Like the clothes of the victims of the bloody piece of apron found in Goulston Street?

Do they still exist in some police vaults? If so, then maybe analyses of the DNA could be done. Maybe the ripper left some hair...

Best regards,
Frank

Hello Frank

The evidence is for the most part irretrievably lost. It does not exist in any police vault.

The "Ripper letters", whether they are evidence or not, largely still exist in the City of Police archives and the National Archives at Kew, but most commentators believe most if not all of the letters are hoaxes.

Witness statements still exist but may or may not describe the actual murderer but most of them probably to other men seen in the neighborhood about the time of the murders.

A "Ripper knife" still exists and is in the possession of Ripperologist Don Rumbelow, but may have been found at one of the later Whitechapel murders and not the canonical five murders of August to November 1888.

A shawl that allegedly belonged to fourth canonical victim Catherine Eddowes still exists but may or may not be authentic. No other clothes of the victims are known to survive.

The piece of apron belonging to Eddowes found in Goulston in an entranceway of Wentworth Model Dwellings is believed to be lost.

The half a kidney sent to George Lusk is believed lost as well.

Victim photographs exist, including two of the Mary Jane Kelly crime scene at 13 Miller's Court, Dorset Street. Existing too are contemporary plans drawn of the murder scene in Mitre Square as well as sketches of Eddowes.

That's about it. Frank, I hope this helps.

All the best

Chris

[Frank]

That is what I suspected or even was afraid of. But nevermind, thanks for Your quick answer.

[ChrisGeorge]

That is what I suspected or even was afraid of. But nevermind, thanks for Your quick answer.

Sorry to disappoint you, Frank.

If you don't already do so, you might consider subscribing to Ripperologist. We are just about to publish our one hundredth issue which will contain a great retrospective of different aspects of the case by many of the leading authorities on the Whitechapel murders.

All the best

Chris

[sdreid]

Keep the faith. You never know when purloined stuff like the mortuary pics might show up.

[perrymason]

Hi,

I believe Stan suggested the real reason so much evidence has gone missing over the years....."lost" is oft used instead of stolen or purloined....the second I would guess is more accurate.

Records were lost and some destroyed accidentally...like as in the Blitz, or as just general housekeeping in some cases probably....but my guess is that there are pieces of evidence, perhaps not clothing or biological samples, but maybe more pictures of room 13 for example, ...that were taken and still exist.

Maybe long forgotten in boxes in the attic somewhere, or in storage.

Cheers

[John Bennett]

In the case of the Lusk Kidney or Eddowes' apron piece, I think these items were just disposed of a while after the event.

I'm sure somebody here could well be more specific, but forensics was extremely primitive (if indeed it existed at all) in those days. Remember, after Polly Nichols' murder, they didn't scrape blood samples from the pavement - Mrs Green's son just washed it away with a bucket of water!

[Christine]

I have often stated that there is a real possibility of identifying the killer from the victim's bodies. They are all in the ground, with their DNA decaying, and they almost certainly have some of the killer's decayed DNA still in their bodies.

Obviously this is not possible with current technology, but think of where DNA technology was 50 years ago compared to now, and imagine making similar strides in the future. It might be possible to single out one person who touched all five bodies, and make statements about him, i.e. he was Irish, or a Polish Jew. That would be extraordinary.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi,

I believe Stan suggested the real reason so much evidence has gone missing over the years....."lost" is oft used instead of stolen or purloined....the second I would guess is more accurate.

Records were lost and some destroyed accidentally...like as in the Blitz, or as just general housekeeping in some cases probably....but my guess is that there are pieces of evidence, perhaps not clothing or biological samples, but maybe more pictures of room 13 for example, ...that were taken and still exist.

Maybe long forgotten in boxes in the attic somewhere, or in storage.

Cheers

Stewart Evans has made the point that the police are concerned with current cases, and do not much value material on old cases. Which is one reason why they would want to move any material on "historic" cases to the National Archives.... but before that some material might have been inadvertently lost because of refiling, as well as possibly some stuff stolen or purloined, conceivably.

I read an account about during the Civil War in the basement of the U.S. Capitol in Washington, D.C., in order to build some new bread ovens to feed the Union troops, wagon loads of old documents dating from the time of the Revolution, the Federal period, and the War of 1812, were carted down to the Potomac and just dumped in the river! Startling but apparently true.

Chris

[aspallek]

In the case of the Lusk Kidney or Eddowes' apron piece, I think these items were just disposed of a while after the event.

I'm sure somebody here could well be more specific, but forensics was extremely primitive (if indeed it existed at all) in those days. Remember, after Polly Nichols' murder, they didn't scrape blood samples from the pavement - Mrs Green's son just washed it away with a bucket of water!

Actually, it is difficult to imagine what value there might be to preseving blood from the pavement even today. The blood there was obviously that of Polly Nichols. If they wanted a sample of her blood it could be obtained directly from the body, not that this would have been of much value in 1888.

[John Bennett]

Actually, it is difficult to imagine what value there might be to preseving blood from the pavement even today. The blood there was obviously that of Polly Nichols. If they wanted a sample of her blood it could be obtained directly from the body, not that this would have been of much value in 1888.

I know, poor comparison. The crux of my comment was that a member of the public just sloshed the blood away.

[jmenges]

Dan Norder I believe established that the Lusk kidney was held at the London Hospital museum (possibly in the Openshaw private collection?) until the 1960s-1970s. It was rotting, and so it was binned.

I think he discussed this at the Knoxville conference so maybe someone who attended could fill in some details or correct my information if I'm wrong.

JM

[perrymason]

Stewart Evans has made the point that the police are concerned with current cases, and do not much value material on old cases. Which is one reason why they would want to move any material on "historic" cases to the National Archives.... but before that some material might have been inadvertently lost because of refiling, as well as possibly some stuff stolen or purloined, conceivably.

I read an account about during the Civil War in the basement of the U.S. Capitol in Washington, D.C., in order to build some new bread ovens to feed the Union troops, wagon loads of old documents dating from the time of the Revolution, the Federal period, and the War of 1812, were carted down to the Potomac and just dumped in the river! Startling but apparently true.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I can see fully how the accumulation of documentation and even physical property can be a storage issue at some stage in its history, and although it does sound bizarre, Im not surprised to read the episode you mentioned.

My contention is that when there are major criminal events in history, and some people have access to actual evidence or data related to the investigations, at some point when the crime is yesterdays news they might take a souvenir. Who of the authorities or the clerical staff in 1915, 20, or 25 for example, thought that Ripper evidence or documents were anything but curiousities and collectibles...particularly since the case was closed "unsolved" in 1892.

Ill bet that some materials collected for the investigations of Kennedy assassination, the Lindberg kidnapping, the Titanic sinking, the Hindenburg tragedy....Im sure there were plenty of "souvenirs" taken from those files as they went cold as well.

All the best Chris.

[diana]

Watch Ebay

The only thing to do at this juncture would be to monitor Ebay. With the economy the way it is somebody might be forced to sell something.

[aspallek]

Just one comment. Although the active investigation ceased, the Whitechapel Murders "case" was never closed.