Liebig & Another Big Lie

[Howard Brown]

One of the staples of the D'Onston "saga" has been that he spent some time on the continent studying in Paris and in Munich. In Munich,he is said to have studied under the Scottish born doctor, Dr. James Allan. Allan studied under the famous man o' medicine, Baron Justus Von Liebig.

Indeed,on page 93 of The True Face of JTR by Mr. Harris, we find the claim that Stephenson rented rooms in Munich and apprenticed under Allan.

For quite a while,it had been difficult to nail this baby to the wall,since for some reason or the other some of us had difficulty in locating Allan...me especially.

Not so with John Savage,a native of Hull and a darned good researcher.

John found evidence of a Dr. Allan and shared his information with us over on JTRForums.com yesterday. Needless to say,I was happy that John or anyone found Dr. Allan, who indeed was in Germany, who indeed did study under Liebig, who ( Liebig) indeed did teach at Munich ( 1852). Keep in mind that Liebig produced chloroform and....... discovered chloral hydrate, D'Onston's preferred drug throughout his life in dealing with his delerium tremens.

There's just one problem with D'Onston's claims to have studied under Allan in Munich. It was impossible.

Allan never taught in Munich. Allan studied in Giessen, some 270 miles away from Munich, up until 1849, when he left Giessen and Baron Liebig to return to Manchester,England to teach there....

If,as D'Onston claimed, he studied with Allan anywhere in Germany...he did so when he was EIGHT years old. Stephenson was still being home schooled at the age of 10 in 1851, 2 years after Allan had returned to England for keeps. Again,Allan was not in Munich,but in Giessen....

Allan subsequently left for Sheffield (after a five year stay in Manchester) and taught at Wesley College in 1854...when Stephenson was 13 years old.

I am currently waiting for information from some folks on whether or not there is a Robert D. Stephenson on their scholastic register from the years of 1854-1859 and if I find out, I'll be sure to share.

Back to regular programming.....

[Howard Brown]

And ze source:

http://www.rsc.org/delivery/_ArticleLinking/DisplayArticleForFree.cfm?doi=JS8672000385&JournalCode=JS

[Howard Brown]

The other problem with this whole affair...not that anyone needs reminding that the previous contentions about RDS were dreadfully inaccurate....is that D'Onston didn't claim that he studied with Allan at Giessen...only that he studied with Allan...and it was Melvin Harris alone who mentioned D'Onston having studied with Allan in Munich. Mr. Harris was in error since Allan didn't teach at Munich and D"onston was too young to have studied with Allan anywhere in Germany. Bernard O'Donnell mentions D'Onston's claims on page 177 of the O'Donnell Manuscript and the reference to Giessen is made. Just to be certain that Stephenson didn't attend classes in Sheffield from 1854-1859, I sent an email to the college ( Wesley ) but haven't received any verification yet. I'll remember to post the result when I get an answer.

[Chris]

... D'Onston didn't claim that he studied with Allan at Giessen...only that he studied with Allan...and it was Melvin Harris alone who mentioned D'Onston having studied with Allan in Munich.

And yet above you refer to "D'Onston's claims to have studied under Allan in Munich".

In a sense, perhaps it's Melvin Harris's posthumous good fortune that those criticising the accuracy of his research should be so sloppy and incomprehensible themselves.

[Howard Brown]

Sloppy? Hardly. Pay attention.

This is what I wrote:

"D'Onston didn't claim that he studied with Allan at Giessen...only that he studied with Allan...and it was Melvin Harris alone who mentioned D'Onston having studied with Allan in Munich."

Thats correct and comprehensible...D'Onston..as your buddy Harris erroneously and sloppily maintained in the True Face....didn't claim to have studied in Munich..but then thats par for the course.... D'Onston didn't specify where he studied with Allan,period. He didn't,or rather couldn't have, anywhere in Germany since the last time Allan was in Germany was when D'Onston was 8 years old.

In a sense its to everyone's good fortune that those who are doing serious Stephenson research are ready and willing to help those with comprehension problems .

This,for the rest of those interested in the former suspect, is what he said and this may be found in the Borderland(1896) article:

III.-GERMAN EXPERIENCES. DOUBLING.

The first of these was when I was studying chemistry under Dr. Allan (who was for so many years Baron Liebig's principal assistant at the great laboratory at the University of Giessen).

At no time does Stephenson mention where he studied...only that he did study under Allan. Thats why I am investigating a link to Wesley College in Sheffield.

[Chris]

You seem to have missed the first sentence of my post:
And yet above you refer to "D'Onston's claims to have studied under Allan in Munich".

But in your next post you said that Stephenson didn't claim to have studied under Allan in Munich.

This is the kind of thing that makes your posts on this subject so confusing. And of course, it doesn't help that when inconsistencies are pointed out, your response is to go on the attack, rather than acknowledging and correcting them.

[Chris]

Let's try and be a bit more balanced about this and try and work out why Harris said what he did.

In the piece you have quoted above, Stephenson relates an incident that (he says) occurred when he was studying chemistry under Dr Allan ("who was for so many years Baron Liebig's principal assistant at the great laboratory at the University of Giessen"). He doesn't claim to have studied under Allan at Giessen, or indeed in Germany, though the tall tale that follows is evidently set in Germany.

Now Melvin Harris knew exactly who Allan was, and that he had worked under Liebig at Giessen, and he knew that Liebig moved from Giessen to Munich in 1852 (Liebig remained there until his death in 1873). The problem was that Harris thought - we don't know why - that Allan moved to Munich with Liebig in 1852, which is evidently incorrect. But as Harris thought that, it's obvious why he would have deduced that it must have been at Munich that Stephenson studied under Allan. Because of course if Stephenson did study under Allan, it must have been after 1852, in which year he would have been only 11 years old.

That much is clear - though on jtrforums.com you imply Harris was suggesting that Stephenson commuted between Munich and Giessen, presumably so that you can berate him again for being "preposterous" and "ridiculous".

Regarding Allan's chronology, the obituary found by John Savage doesn't actually say "Allan studied in Giessen ... up until 1849" as you claim. It says "The next six years [after he attended the University of Glasgow] he spent at Edinburgh, Giessen, and Berlin, studying with Jamieson, Liebig, Mitscherlich, Magnus, Muller, and other great men, who then adorned these schools. He was also for two sessions assistant to Prof. W. Gregory." And then he began to practise in Manchester in 1849.

The obituary below (from Some Old Families, by Hardy Bertram MacCall (1890) - via Google Books - citing "a Sheffield Local Newspaper") makes it clear that his stay in Berlin occurred after he left Giessen, and that his period as assistant to Gregory was at Edinburgh, after his return to Scotland. So it would appear he left Giessen some years before 1849.

[Howard Brown]

Chris:

Thanks for the reply to the original post...and lets indeed check this situation out. I appreciate that you took the time to counter the post.

Here is what I said in the first post...

"There's just one problem with D'Onston's claims to have studied under Allan in Munich"

It was my error and what should have been stated was that Donston claimed to have studied with Allan....but without the Munich part.

As to me going on the attack as you stated, I was a little testy because all you had to do,without that sort of response you gave...was point out that error and I would have acknowledged it as I am doing now....and as to acknowleding any other errors, I am usually quick to do so...as in the ill-fated "Davis Ward Hoax" issue which I felt needed re-examination since the Davis Ward housed typhoid patients. I apologized...to D'Onston. No harm done. In demolishing this whole charade of Stephenson being a suspect beyond December 26th,1888, one will occasionally get facts jumbled unintentionally.
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Now Melvin Harris knew exactly who Allan was, and that he had worked under Liebig at Giessen, and he knew that Liebig moved from Giessen to Munich in 1852 (Liebig remained there until his death in 1873). The problem was that Harris thought - we don't know why - that Allan moved to Munich with Liebig in 1852, which is evidently incorrect. But as Harris thought that, it's obvious why he would have deduced that it must have been at Munich that Stephenson studied under Allan. Because of course if Stephenson did study under Allan, it must have been after 1852, in which year he would have been only 11 years old.

Harris could not have overlooked page 177 of the O'Donnell manuscript, where he would have seen that there is no reference to Munich,period and there is no reference anywhere of D'Onston mentioning Munich...and since Allan did NOT follow Liebig to Munich, the question begs...where did he,Harris, come up with that idea? In the scheme of things,its irrelevant...and I only brought the Liebig-Big Lie reference in regard to D'Onston,not Harris, in the first place. D'Onston said he studied under Allan. I am following that up as previously mentioned in another location. I doubt that he did. Its not my fault either that Harris "thought" Allan went to Munich...and I did not start this thread up to harangue Harris...only D'Onston for another lie in a series of lies that Harris supported.


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That much is clear - though on jtrforums.com you imply Harris was suggesting that Stephenson commuted between Munich and Giessen, presumably so that you can berate him again for being "preposterous" and "ridiculous".

I used the above analogy to declare that the idea,not Mr. Harris,was ridiculous and preposterous. The link to that series of posts is included at the bottom of this page.
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So it would appear he left Giessen some years before 1849.

If he did,thats fine. It further demonstrates that this whole episode is ridiculous as to D"onston studying "abroad" with Allan. The ballpark figure ( of mine ) of Allan being in Manchester from 1849 to 1854 was to give the reader a general idea of where Allan was from the time he left Giessen to the time he went to Manchester and held a position there...until he left for Sheffield in 1854...when D'Onston was 13 years old.
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This is the URL that Chris has mentioned where he states I referred to Mr. Harris as preposterous and ridiculous in the context of the thread. Again,I referred to the notion of D'Onston studying with Allan, but housing in Giessen as preposterous and ridiculous...and nothing more.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....2336#post52336
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[Chris]

Harris could not have overlooked page 177 of the O'Donnell manuscript, where he would have seen that there is no reference to Munich,period and there is no reference anywhere of D'Onston mentioning Munich...

If Harris had overlooked that, he would have been doing no more than you have done yourself over the last few days, when you accused Stephenson of lying on the basis that he had claimed to have studied in Munich!

http://www.jtrforums.com/showpost.php?p=52221&postcount=2

The irony is that it's not only Harris, but Fido, Wilson and above all Howard Brown himself who make errors of this sort. But of course Harris is the one who continually gets it in the neck.

But in any case you are missing my point. Clearly Harris could see that Stephenson didn't say where he had studied under Allan. But because Harris believed (wrongly) that Allan had accompanied Liebig to Munich, and because of the dates, he had clearly deduced that it must have been at Munich that Stephenson studied under Allan.

I used the above analogy to declare that the idea,not Mr. Harris,was ridiculous and preposterous. The link to that series of posts is included at the bottom of this page.

Well, whether your one-word comment "Ridiculous" referred to Harris or the idea, the point is that Harris was clearly not suggesting any such thing. Harris was suggesting that he took rooms at Munich while he was studying at Munich, not that he took rooms at Munich while he was studying 272 miles away! The ridiculous idea is yours, not Harris's.

[Howard Brown]

If Harris had overlooked that, he would have been doing no more than you have done yourself over the last few days, when you accused Stephenson of lying on the basis that he had claimed to have studied in Munich --Chris

That point has been corrected in my previous post, Chris. I'll be a little more careful when bringing up points regarding Stephenson & his claims. This point, that of Stephenson claiming he studied with Allan anywhere, is the real issue. Due to John Savage's efforts, we now know when Allan was in England,effectively eliminating the possibility of Stephenson studying in Germany with Allan.