How many Mary Kellies in the LVP East End?!2

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

To clear up some things about the JtR mystery queen;

A very obvious explanation to the contradictions about the outlook of MJK is, that Mary was the most common girl's first-name and Kelly the second most common last-name in LVP Ireland.

Thus there is a natural explanation to the 5'4"/5'7", Black Mary/Blonde Mary/Red-haired Mary etc. debates.

To clear it up once and for all; I hope someone can present a census about Irish women called Mary Kelly in the LVP East End.

All right, even a rough figure will do!

All the best
Jukka

[Sam Flynn]

To clear it up once and for all; I hope someone can present a census about Irish women called Mary Kelly in the LVP East End.

There were 234 "Mary Kellys" in London in 1891 Census, of whom 53 were born in Ireland. Most of the latter lived in the East End - Whitechapel, Shoreditch, Hackney, Mile End, St Georges East, Poplar.

In fact, most of the grand total of 234 "Mary Kellys", whether Irish-born or not, seem to have lived in the poorer parts of London - in the aforementioned districts, plus Clerkenwell, Islington, Paddington, Westminster, Spitalfields.

[Mike Covell]

Do we know how many Mary Kelly's resided in the area in the 1881 Census?
I got rid of my Ancestry last week after finally completing "Look up's" on the Stephenson clan!!

[Sam Flynn]

The pattern is about the same in 1881, Mike. To be honest, I wouldn't have expected it to be radically different.

To be precise, there were 274 "Mary Kellys" in London in 1881, of whom 64 were born in Ireland. The majority of them live in the poorer parts of London.

[KatBradshaw]

Wow that is a lot of Mary Kellys!! What about Mary Davis/es??
I have long been convinced that Mary is there but under a different name.

[Mike Covell]

If only it was as simple as subtracting the 1891 from the 1881!! I too feel that a different name might have been used, but do we even know if Mary Kelly was in London in 1881?

[KatBradshaw]

No Mike we don't and I would have thought that if we taking Mary's story as even slightly correct then she may have been in south Wales under the name of Davis/es

[Suzi]

Hi all-
A fascinating thread- but I can't get past the problem of the name- As a bit of a buff/bore on Music Hall matters- the name Mary Jane -Mary Ann and Kelly in all their combinations various are all too common in many songs these names crop up well shall we say about 98% of the time.

My favourite must be ' Let's Shout Hooray for Mary Ann I'm going to get wed'

That's irrelevant sadly-

-But- I still have a prob with the number of times that 'the girls' used the name/soubriquet (great word!)- Mary/Mary Ann/Mary Jane /Kelly etc as a form of anonimity- it seems that combinations of these names would have been a good way to disappear-along with an address in Flowery Dean/ Fashion St or wherever -you'd be guaranteed a disappearance into the murk!

Listening to 'Just Like The Ivy ' here--------- Hmmmmmmmmmm

Suz xxxxx

[Chris Scott]

Just some observations about the name Kelly:

There was considerable confusion in the early reports as to the victim's name. This was the period when she was named as Mary Jane Lawrence and Lizzie Fisher. Where these versions of her name came from is not known.

The version Mary Kelly could be combination of forenames from one source and surname from another. A number of those that knew her said she was known to them as Mary Jane with no surname given. One of these, Thomas Bowyer, who found the body, specifically said he did not know her surname. At the inquest he said: "I was ordered by McCarthy to go to Mary Jane's room, No. 13. I did not know the deceased by the name of Kelly."
Mary Ann Cox said: "She was called Mary Jane."
But others gave the full version:
Julia Venturney said: "I knew the deceased for some time as Kelly, and I knew Joe Barnett, who lived with her. "
Maria Harvey said: "I knew the deceased as Mary Jane Kelly."
But the one person who should have known her best, Joseph Barnett was adamant that her forenames were Marie Jeanette, and it was this form of her name that was entered on her death certificate. Barnet had this to say with regard to the form of her name:
" Her name was Marie Jeanette Kelly with the French spelling as described to me. Kelly was her maiden name."

It has been conjectured that the form Marie Jeanette was an affectation adopted by Kelly at or about the time when she went to France, when she was allegedly living like a lady and drove about in a carriage. Of course, this episode in Kelly's life occurred befire she met Barnett so it is still possible she adopted the French version as a deliberate affectation.

The account of Kelly's early life as related by Barnett is so detailed that it is tempting to think that there is at least some truth in it. However, the only "handle" on which we can hang any research is the name of Kelly herself, and, as many have found, that leads nowhere. Parts of the story that should stand up to scrutiny - e.g. that Kelly was her maiden name, and that she legally married aged 16 to a man named Davies - again lead nowhere.

All the research that has been done on Kelly leads, in my opinion, to only one inevitable conclusion, Namely, that the name Mary Jane Kelly was adopted by her and was not her birth name. How much of the Barnett story was true will, I fear, never be known, and we will almost certainly never know the real identity of the woman who died in Millers Court.

[Chava]

I agree with Chris Scott. I would be amazed if Mary Jane Kelly was her real name. Apart from that, I don't believe she ever went to France. And 'Marie Jeanette' may have been something some French trick told her when she asked her what her name would be in French. I believe she thought that pretending she'd been in a gay house in the West End would up her ante in the LVP and that is probably the origin of that piece of embroidery. There is nothing in this woman's presentation to suggest that she was anything other than an East End part-time prostitute who got by the best she could and did whatever she needed to do to keep body and soul together.

[Sam Flynn]

I believe she thought that pretending she'd been in a gay house in the West End...

There is at least some independent corroboration of Kelly's "West End Story", Chava, which is supported in some degree by what Elizabeth Phoenix recalled of Kelly's time in Ratcliff Highway. It is one of the few aspects of Kelly's tale that might actually stand up to scrutiny.

[Chris Scott]

Gareth,
The following section from various press reports supports this:
Her experience of the East End appears to have begun with a woman who resided in one of the thoroughfares off Ratcliff Highway, now known as St. George's street. This person appears to have received Kelly direct from her West End home, for she had not been very long with her when, it is stated, both women went to the French "lady's" residence and demanded her box which contained numerous dresses of a costly description.
The source of this story cannot be positively stated, as the landlady in question is the mysterious Mrs Buki.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chris,

Good catch. Elizabeth Phoenix came forward with tales of Ratcliffe Highway, so I'd always (perhaps wrongly) assumed that she was the source of this story. However, Phoenix's connection with Mrs Carthy, also of "The Highway", and another of Kelly's landladies, at least makes Mrs P a good potential candidate for our "mystery informant".

Note that the Echo of 12th November 1888 interweaves the "West End... French lady... dresses of a costly description" story (which you quote above) with tales of Mrs Carthy that are unambiguously attributed to Phoenix elsewhere, without actually mentioning any witness by name. I wouldn't mind betting it was her, especially since the "costly dresses" story appears in the papers on the same day (12th Nov) that Phoenix's story first sees the light of day.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Gareth
The full section from which I quoted above makes seperate mention of Mrs Carthy
I think it is worth quoting in full
Chris

The antecedents of the victim have been variously stated, but as far as can be ascertained from statements made by persons with whom she lodged, and companions in whose company she usually spent the evenings when residing in the locality in which she was murdered, there is little doubt that she came to London from Cardiff some five or six years ago, leaving in that town those friends whom she has afterwards described as being "well to do people." She is stated to have been an excellent scholar and an artist of no mean degree. It would appear that on her arrival in London she made the acquaintance of a French woman residing in the neighbourhood of Knightsbridge, who, she informed her friends, led her to pursue the degraded life which has now culminated in her untimely end. She made no secret of the fact that while she was with the woman she drove about in a carriage and made several journeys to the French capital and in fact led a life which is described as that "of a lady." By some means, however, she suddenly drifted into the East End. Here fortune failed her , and a career which stands out in bold and sad contrast to her earlier experience was commenced. Her experience of the East End appears to have begun with a woman who resided in one of the thoroughfares off Ratcliff Highway, now known as St. George's street. This person appears to have received Kelly direct from her West End home, for she had not been very long with her when, it is stated, both women went to the French "lady's" residence and demanded her box which contained numerous dresses of a costly description. Kelly at last indulged in intoxicants, it is stated, to an extent which made her an unwelcome friend. From St. George's street she went to lodge with Mrs. Carthy at Breezer's Hill, Pennington street. This place she left about eighteen months or two years ago, and from that time seems to have left Ratcliff altogether, and taken up quarters in Dorset street. No one appears to have known anything definitely about her after she arrived at Commercial street.

The unfortunate victim is described as being a woman about 25 years of age, 5ft 7in in height, rather stout, with blue eyes, fair complexion, and a very good head of hair. She had two false teeth in her upper jaw. She was known to be leading a gay life in the neighbourhood of Aldgate. Mrs. Carthy states that the deceased when she left her place went to live with a man in the building trade, and who she (Mrs. Carthy) believed would have married her. She, however, was awakened by Kelly some short time ago at two o'clock in the morning, when she was with a strange man, and asked for a bed for the night. On that occasion Mrs. Carthy asked the deceased if she was not living with the man who took her from the neighbourhood. She replied in the negative, and explained her position. From this time she was never seen in the neighbourhood.

[Chris Scott]

Regarding the mysterious incident of Kelly visiting Mrs Carthy with an unknown man, certain questions arise
1) How long before the murder did this happen? Carthy says only "some short time ago"
2) Why would Kelly, who would certainly have been living at Millers Court by then, have walked all the way to Breezer's Hill for a bed?
3) Who was the man? We can probably eliminate Fleming as Mrs Carthy appears to have known him, if he was "the man in the building trade"

In another version I have seen it adds the detail that Mrs Carthy let the couple stay for the night at a charge of two shillings.