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  • That Pint Pot

    Mary Ann Cox testified that she saw Kelly go back to her room at 11.45 pm or thereabouts. She was drunk and was in the company of Blotchy Face, who was carrying a pot of beer. She starts singing as she goes into her room. At 1.00 am Cox, who has been out, returns. And Kelly is still singing. And she hears her singing as she leaves.

    A couple of things occur to me on looking at this:

    - An hour and a half or thereabouts is a hell of a long time for a drunk to keep singing. One assumes she shuts up while she's taking care of business. Im not sure why she would start up again. She's not likely to get drunker, she's likely to sober up a little. I doubt there's enough beer in Blotchy's pint pot to keep her going. So I wonder what exactly it was that Cox heard when she returned to her crib at 1.00 am. Was it Kelley in full, totally recognizable voice? Or was it a humming that she assumed was Kelley? Someone humming when he hears steps up the court, and the door across the way opening, so that people would assume that Kelley was alive.

    - The pint pot. I don't know why this never occurred to me before. I guess I just took BF and his accoutrements for granted. It was common practice for a man to have his own pot, and bring it with him to a pub when he wanted to have a beer. No one has ever suggested that it was unusual for BF to have a pot of beer in his hand although he's nowhere near a pub. Against the law to drink off the premises, but I doubt anyone's paying much attention. And a man walking through the streets late at night with a pot in his hand is clearly a drinker off home to his bed. But a pint pot wasn't all that small. I reckon you could put all kinds of bits and bobs in there and carry them easily, unmessily and quietly wherever you wanted to go. If a policeman sees you with your pot in your hand, I doubt he'd stop and ask to see the contents. After all, he's looking for some clever West End fiend, not an East End working man who's gone home via a couple of pubs...

  • #2
    Hi Chava,

    Good to see you! It's been a while.

    I've wondered about this prolonged singsong of Mary's. I thought it could be that there were breaks in the singing that Mary Cox didn't witness. It's strange though.

    As for Blotchy's pint pot, were these actual pints, as in 16 ounces, or were they just called "pint" pots? I'm looking at my one pint measuring cup and it certainly wouldn't hold enough beer to get a seasoned drinker drunk, unless it contained hard stuff. If they were already drunk, a pint might carry them for a little while. You certainly could put bits and bobs in one, but they couldn't be very large ones if Blotchy's container was an actual pint.

    Best,

    Cel
    "What our ancestors would really be thinking, if they were alive today, is: "Why is it so dark in here?"" From Pyramids by Sir Terry Pratchett, a British National Treasure.

    __________________________________

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    • #3
      Hi Cel!

      Yeah, I"ve been busy

      As to the size of the pot. I think some of them were fairly large and quite decorative. They didn't have to be the size of a pint, just so long as they could contain a pint. My father was an antique dealer, and I remember seeing the occasional pot come through. I think it would certainly be adequate to carry the stuff that the Ripper took with him as trophies. It would be waterproof, so leak-proof. And I think provides perfect cover--a man walking through the streets late at night, having gone out for a quiet drink. I doubt a policeman would take a second glance.

      Also I have had a thought regarding the differing organs that were taken. I wonder if he takes different bits from different kills so that he remembers them better. Easy to mix up a couple of kidneys or whatever. But there's Eddowes's (half) kidney. There's Chapman's uterus. There's Kelly's heart...

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      • #4
        Note - I believe it was a quart can of beer. So, two pints...
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Chava,

          It was quite a usual thing for pubs to sell beer for consumption off the premises and draught beer would often poured into the customer's own container for them to take home.

          Some pubs even had a small bar area specially for this purpose known as the "Jug and Bottle". As a young lad I worked behind the bar in the 1960's and every night would serve an elderly lady with half a pint to drink in the jug and bottle, and pour a pint into a jug which she brought with her and carried home under her shawl.

          Rgds
          John

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          • #6
            John,

            It was quite a usual thing for pubs to sell beer for consumption off the premises

            It was quite common over here in the States as well and was known as "rushing the growler." The derivation of the term is uncertain and has made for some lively debate. Indeed, in the "bad old days" of the 19C children old enough to carry the pail without spilling it were often pressed into service to rush the growler for dad at home and no one raised an eyebrow. After all, if dad actually left the house for his own brew the fresh air might sober him up a bit. In time, the convenience and unquity of bottled and canned beer over here put an end to the practice,

            Don.
            "To expose [the Senator] is rather like performing acts of charity among the deserving poor; it needs to be done and it makes one feel good, but it does nothing to end the problem."

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            • #7
              Hi Celesta,

              Imperial measurements = 20 fl oz to the pint, not the 16 that we have over here. But, as Gareth just mentioned, it was a quart, so, 40 fl oz.

              Silly me packed tons of my cookery books when I first came over here, but then found I had to work out what 'cups' would equal in Imperial ounces.. gave up cooking for a long time Eventually I realised, duh, I'd brought a couple of Unigate milk bottles with me, so use them for measuring fluids now.

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              • #8
                On the subject of beer pails, I've had this little fellow on my eBay watch list for a couple of months now. It's been relisted three times now, without being sold, but the seller's description didn't give any information other than just "London", and never replied to my queries. I'd have bought it just for fun each time it was listed, but petrol has been through the roof lately (when there's been a pump that's not bagged) and so that was the priority in this household. I see that it doesn't appear to be on the seller's list at all this time, so maybe they gave up on getting rid of it.

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                • #9
                  Hello all,

                  There is another explanation for his carrying the mug or pot, in that he left the pub with their pint pot, quart pot, or pail, intending to return to it after seeing Mary home, and on the way there started to think about some fringe benefits for his chivalry, as she is smashed. By his description Mary might have turned away blokes like this guy normally,...but she was now all alone in the room, no more Joe, Maria moved out to her own room, and I believe she led him in for that reason. Company. It would explain singing.

                  They did arrive home before midnight, he could have made his way back with the mug before midnight if he just saw her to the door,...but as I recall he guided Mary in and he closed the door behind them.

                  Best regards all.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    All,

                    Do you suppose a heart would sink to the bottom of a quart pail of beer?

                    Also, many brewpubs in the States now have growlers for take out. They are all branded with the brewpubs' names, and are reusable. What about a Victorian beer pail? My guess is that they were all the same and owned by an individual, much like an empty gas can.

                    Think about it. You drink some of the beer, put an organ in, and it looks like a full pail. Beautiful. I can't wait to try it out.

                    Cheers,

                    Mike
                    huh?

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                    • #11
                      Kidney in a beer marinade would have been very nise...

                      B.
                      Bailey
                      Wellington, New Zealand
                      hoodoo@xtra.co.nz
                      www.flickr.com/photos/eclipsephotographic/

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                      • #12
                        The pots were usually ceramic and had illustrations or colurs to signify what pub or brewery they came from.

                        During the Victorian period, in Hull anyway, Publicans allowed customers to take pots and jugs away, to be returned later. This was done via a small door or hatch at the side of the building, and those returing often got small financial compensation for doing so.
                        Regards Mike

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                        • #13
                          Hi Chava, Lyn, Sam, et al,

                          That's what I thought. It was called a pint and was actually larger. And, Lyn, I forgot about the different measuring system. Yes, you pack a fair amount of bits in a quart container.

                          Best,

                          Cel
                          "What our ancestors would really be thinking, if they were alive today, is: "Why is it so dark in here?"" From Pyramids by Sir Terry Pratchett, a British National Treasure.

                          __________________________________

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hi Don,

                            "Rushing the Growler", what a delightful phrase; I just feel like rushing down to the local pub and saying Fill My Growler.

                            Not sure what reaction I might get!

                            Rgds
                            John

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hello Bailey!

                              Originally posted by Bailey View Post
                              Kidney in a beer marinade would have been very nise...

                              B.
                              How about a heart stew in a beer marinade...?

                              All the best
                              Jukka
                              "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

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