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Morris Eagle the Ripper

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  • Morris Eagle the Ripper

    This is a timeline based upon Tom Wescott's idea that Morris Eagle could have been the Ripper and the broad-shouldered man.


    9-10:30 William Wess walks an English friend home. He is the publisher of the Arbeter Fraint

    11:30 Meeting adjourns

    11:30 or so, Eagle walks lady friend home. Let’s look at what happens between Eagle’s coming and going:

    11:45 Marshall see Stride kissing a stout, 5’6” man. Stride has no flower

    11:55 Marshall is done watching them as they go towards the club

    12:30-12:35 PC Smith see 5’7” man with Stride. He has a parcel.


    3 things appear to happen almost simultaneously. Eagle says he was back at the club at 12:40, but for the sake of argument, let’s say 12:45.

    Here’s what occurs at roughly the same time:

    12:45 Brown see Stride and 5’7” man

    12:45 Schwartz see 5’5” man toss Stride to the ground

    12:45 Eagle comes back to the club

    Next

    12:46 or so, BS shouts Lipski to a second man, who seems to trail Schwartz after that

    1:00 Diemschutz cart shies at Stride’s body. He pulls left into the yard and hops down to see her dead.


    Here is a new timeline that makes sense to me regarding Eagle as BS and as JTR (possibly)

    11:30 Eagle takes lady friend home

    11:40 Eagle picks up Stride. He tells her he is an important fellow at the club and that there is good booze and comfortable quarters to be had. He talks her into at least walking in that direction to see what's what. He has no intention of actually taking her inside the Club Building. He knows that it will be a busy place for a few more hours, but the yard will be quiet. He knows this from being affiliated with the Club for a while.

    11:45 Marshall sees their carryings-on.

    11:55 They are close to the gates of the club. Eagle is trying to talk her into going into the darkened yard, but she hasn’t been drinking and is a bit wary. Plus, there are only a lot of young men in the club. The conversation is about his “It’s completely safe” and her “I don’t trust so many men.”

    12:00-12:30 A flower seller, knowing that women sometimes leave the Club with their men, passes by to see if the Club is out yet. Eagle buys a flower for Stride to please her. She says, “A girl can’t eat a flower.” He gets her some fish and chips which are in the parcel, or some fruit.

    12:35 PC Smith walks by and sees the pair. She is now wearing the flower, but they haven’t tucked into the food yet. Eagle/BS is going to use that as a further lure.

    12:45 Nothing is working and Eagle tries to pull her into the yard as Schwartz is coming down Berner Street. Stride is too strong and he simply lets go of her which looks like a shove.

    12:46 A man smoking a pipe is coming out of the doorway of a pub as Schwartz is crossing the street. Eagle shouts Lipski and Pipeman follows Schwartz to see what that was about. He’s been drinking and has no fear of a little Jew. Also, Stride is down, perhaps Pipeman has seen Eagle around as Eagle is always at the Club, but Schwartz is suspicious looking as he is an unknown Jew.

    12:47 Eagle lifts Stride up using the hair, takes her into the yard, and cuts her throat. He has run out of time. He knows that people will be getting out of the Club soon. He casually tosses the body down and goes into the club and eats his fish and chips. As far as anyone knows, he was back by 12:40 because he tells some of them that.

    Cheers,

    Mike
    huh?

  • #2
    The above scenario seems to rule out a domestic situation.If Eagle was not the Ripper,what is a conceivable reason for killing her.If he was the Ripper,how does he measure up to other suspects seen with victims.

    Comment


    • #3
      Harry,

      Yes. This is only based on Eagle being the Ripper. You can figure out the domestic part.

      Mike
      huh?

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Mike!

        Interesting to see this all put into a timeline. There are a few things I don´t agree with (as always), though:

        "11:55 Marshall is done watching them as they go towards the club"

        He did not see them go towards the club, not unless they were planning to round the planet. They walked SOUTH, Mike!

        In your scenario, he cuts first, and then casually tosses the body to the ground. That is not consistent with the fact that no bloodspurrts were to be seen. But I like the part with the parcel, Eagle seeing the tug-of-war outside the doors and the murder itself through, without letting go of his chips, only to munch away at them inside the club later.

        The time Eagle came back to the club is normally given as 12.35-12.40, meaning that adding 5-10 minutes is awkward.

        Marshalls man and Smiths men wore different types of hats.

        But of course, adding a little fantasy and changing a few times, we can launch old (well...) Morris as the Ripper. Then again, the same thing would go for Diemschitz, Wess, Kozebrodsky and PC Smith too. And Packer, come to think of it.

        All the best,
        Fisherman

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't really see someone standing in the same spot for 40 minutes (luring her for a total of an entire hour) trying to entice her into the dark yard--again for an entire hour, right near a building where there are many people who can identify him. If we were talking about 5-10 minutes before he gave up and tried to bash her, that's one thing. But to stand out in the open for a solid hour trying to get her into the yard?

          Let all Oz be agreed;
          I need a better class of flying monkeys.

          Comment


          • #6
            Fisherman,

            Right, they passed Marshall's house, but that wasn't more than 20 feet from the club. He didn't watch them go out of sight and perhaps they were just going a bit to get that parcel and then turned around. Who knows. It's just an attempt to fit some things together. As for Eagle, 12:40 and 12:45 are too close to give him the benefit of the doubt. As I said, he could have told the others that he was back at 12:40, for a bit of an alibi. Anyway, the timing is so close and the means of timekeeping makes 5 minutes immaterial.

            Hats schmats.

            Cheers,

            Mike
            huh?

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm assuming - perhaps wrongly - that Eagle was Jewish. So why should he shout "Lipski"?

              Also, according to Schwartz, BS tried to pull her out of the yard. And he says he had nothing in his hands.

              Comment


              • #8
                Robert,

                I'm only just looking at a plausible scenario based on Eagle being the killer.

                Lipski is answered on another thread and answered easily, I might add.

                Morris Eagle, by his account was out and about during the entire time Stride was spotted and brought back to the Club. His time schedule fits to a T.
                If we can find out that he was 5'5'' to 5'7"... who knows.

                Mike
                huh?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Mike

                  Re the other thread : I wonder, if the socialist Jews had been in the habit of hurling these epithets at the religious Jews, wouldn't the police have heard about it?

                  Re the murder, wasn't Eagle taking a terrible risk? First he has to kill Stride without getting blood on his clothing. And second he has to hope that Schwartz, who has seen him, won't later be able to identify him. It's not as if Eagle disappeared anonymously into the night. He was nailed to the club.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Robert,

                    This was Tom's idea. I just decided to do a little timeline. Of course I could come up with details to answer your questions, but I don't really care about it that much. Everyone knew that the term 'Lipski' was derogatory. Why would the police have to create some special document saying, "Oh Yeah. Sometimes anarchists use it too." ?

                    Cheers,

                    Mike
                    huh?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Clarification

                      Sorry, I need clarification.

                      Are you pushing for Eagle as the 'Ripper' or as soley Strides killer?

                      If the former then where does Eddowes fit in this timeline and if the latter then he cannot be labelled as Jack nor Stride as part of the canon.

                      Monty
                      Monty

                      https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                      Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                      http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Robert View Post
                        Re the murder, wasn't Eagle taking a terrible risk? First he has to kill Stride without getting blood on his clothing. And second he has to hope that Schwartz, who has seen him, won't later be able to identify him. It's not as if Eagle disappeared anonymously into the night. He was nailed to the club.
                        Robert, I agree. Good point. Why would the Ripper kill someone at the club he is associated with? Of course we don't know what all is in the mind of a serial killer, but still.

                        Roy
                        Sink the Bismark

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Monty,

                          Tom and I were posting about this last night. I'm just taking a shot at a timeline in which Eagle could be the killer and BS man. He would have to be the Ripper too. I haven't gotten around to Eddowes, as this is just a lark, and I don't really buy it. I just wanted to try to see what I could do with the scenario.

                          Cheers,

                          Mike
                          huh?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Mike writes:
                            "I just wanted to try to see what I could do with the scenario."

                            ...which is all good and well. But I think that the backdraws are piling up at an impressive speed, Mike.

                            On the issue of what way Marshall´s man and Stride took, you write:

                            "Right, they passed Marshall's house, but that wasn't more than 20 feet from the club. He didn't watch them go out of sight and perhaps they were just going a bit to get that parcel and then turned around. Who knows."

                            And of course, you are at least partly right here. At some point Stride turned back. We cannot be sure that Marshall´s man did, though, even if I think there is compelling reasons to believe that he and BS man were one and the same. Í´m a sucker for details, Mike, that´s just it. I haven´t given up the hope that some day such a flair for details may earn me a point or two.

                            On the plus side of it all, I think the piece of the Morris Eagle/Ripper scenario I would be most interested in buying is the fact that he would have left the stage through the side door of the club, explaining why our Mrs Mortimer did not see anybody leaving the yard with a sinister smile and a blood-dripping knife.
                            Then again, the part I would be most eager to get rid off is the very same: Once Eagle was in the house, it kind of rules him out as Eddowes´killer. And since that was the only slaying of the two that would have been a Ripper deed, it´s just rotten luck - is it not?

                            All the best, Mike!
                            Fisherman
                            Last edited by Fisherman; 09-14-2008, 09:27 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Michael

                              But wasn't the man seen by Best and Gardner in Liz Strides company as they emerged from the Bricklayers Arms at 11 30 almost certainly the man as seen by Marshall in Strides company?

                              All the best

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