Previous Assaults on Liz

[c.d.]

What do you think the odds are that Liz had been assaulted far worse than being thrown to the ground by the BS man in her long career as a street prostitute in Sweden and in London? Maybe a black eye, tooth loosened or knocked out? Maybe a knife pulled on her? If so, none of these events resulted in her death. I would guess that all of the victims as well as most of the long time prostitutes on the street at the time had all experienced things far worse than being thrown to the ground.

Was what Liz experienced at the hands of the BS man unique in the annals of prostitution? I would venture to guess that it was not that an unusual event but in the case of Liz takes on far more menacing proportions because she was killed shortly after. But if the whole Liz/BS man encounter took less than 5 minutes (which appears to be the consensus view) and he simply walked away thereafter, there would appear to be plenty of time for Jack to make his appearance. Keep in mind that Chief Inspector Swanson felt there was time for another killer other than the BS man. He was there at the time, had all the facts and I would venture to guess that having obtained the rank of Chief Inspector, he was quite familiar with timelines.

So in summary we have a not uncommon event (Liz being thrown to the ground) followed by enough time for Jack to make an appearance.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

So in summary we have a not uncommon event (Liz being thrown to the ground) followed by enough time for Jack to make an appearance

An interesting point there, CD, is that of Jack "making an appearance". Why would he head to an obscure, ill-lit backwater like Berner Street - let alone Dutfield's Yard - in search of prey? I might understand him picking up with Stride somewhere more auspicious - outside a pub, say, or on Commercial Road - and walking with her to some secluded spot, much as I suspect happened with most of the others. However, that's not the scenario we have here, if BS was not the man who killed her. She's already in the secluded spot, so what brought her killer there, if he wasn't BS?

[c.d.]

An interesting point there, CD, is that of Jack "making an appearance". Why would he head to an obscure, ill-lit backwater like Berner Street - let alone Dutfield's Yard - in search of prey? I might understand him picking up with Stride somewhere more auspicious - outside a pub, say, or on Commercial Road - and walking with her to some secluded spot, much as I suspect happened with most of the others. However, that's not the scenario we have here, if BS was not the man who killed her. She's already in the secluded spot, so what brought her killer there, if he wasn't BS?

Hi Sam,

I notice that you cleverly dodged the question of whether Liz had been previously assaulted As to your question, while obviously one that could only be answered by Jack himself, I'll take a stab at it (pun intended).
When Jack's blood ran hot, it was probably any port in a storm with respect to finding a victim. But what if he liked to cruise a given area looking for future victims, trying to spot a woman whom he'd really like to kill? Maybe he ran into such a woman near Berner Street but was unable to kill her then and came back hoping that she was still there since the prostitutes had specific areas that they frequented. Failing to find her, he settles on Liz.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

I notice that you cleverly dodged the question of whether Liz had been previously assaulted

Not at all, CD - if I had a problem with your conjecture, I'd have said so, but I agree with you. It seems reasonable enough to me to suppose that Liz had "seen it all" in her career. Whether she was still pursuing it at her age, or at least on that night, is another matter of course. If so, then it strikes me that she could've picked a more propitious spot than some ill-lit gateway in a nondescript back-street. Perhaps she'd lost the knack

[perrymason]

Hi cd, Sam,

Since Liz had been arguably the victim who had been a known prostitute for longer than any of the other victims, I would venture she had seen her share of scuffles. She was missing 5 teeth I believe...do we know how they came out? As to whether this episode constitutes a rare occurance in street whore crime....not likely. But few ended in murder. So something triggered the violence,...either the fact that the man was so pre-disposed, or perhaps the fact that his sensibility was impaired, and Liz incited his anger, and he lost control for a moment.

Since Liz was killed in a second or two, and nothing more transpired, both the first and the second are plausible. Neither logically translate to Jack however.

BSM acosts Liz, she pulls away, she falls with a exclamation, he helps her up and slips into the yard holding her by the arm, peeved at her rebuff... he tries again to proposition her....knowing that she does sell herself....and she says no, and something derogatory to him, pulls away and turns her back to walk away. He acts,....and with almost instant sobriety once he realizes what he has done, he splits.

Does he leave via the gates.....or enter the club via the side door?

Best regards cd.

[Elias]

She was missing 5 teeth I believe...do we know how they came out?



Best regards cd.

They were lost on board the Princess Alice weren't they?

[claire]

Hi c.d,

I like that theory (and would agree that Liz would have been more than familiar with a bit of roughing up; even if, by some miracle, she wasn't, it doesn't diminish your theory any). The really interesting thing to me (and it sort of aligns with Sam's question about what Jack was doing there) is what this might tell us about JtR: where he lived, how he picked his victims and, moreover, why he picked them. Was he just passing (or watching from an adjacent door or window), saw Liz being thrown about, and went on to kill her in some warped mercy mission? (And was he already on his way to another mercy mission to meet with Kate E. later on? Hadn't she said something along these lines to acquaintances?)

[Fisherman]

C.d.asks:
"What do you think the odds are that Liz had been assaulted far worse than being thrown to the ground by the BS man in her long career as a street prostitute in Sweden and in London? "

I think, c.d., that she would have been beaten up and maltreated at a number of occasions - it comes with the trade, no doubt.
But I don´t think that is something that happens very frequently, at least not if we are to believe contemporary colleagues of Liz´, who also testify to violence always being a risk - but one they do not have to handle all that often. Most customers approach them to purchase sex, no more than that, and the girls providing it learn how to handle most situations involving possible violence as they go along. If prostitution meant getting beaten up on a daily basis, the fewest of women would resort to it.
To sum it all up: Yes, any prostitute could run into two different, violent men, in the span of fifteen minutes. But it is just a "could", since it would be extremely unlikely to happen, statistically.

On the violence outside Dutfield´s Yard, I think that it is too often described as a vicious attack. There were no punches or kicks dealt. The only thing we have on record is that he threw her to the ground, and that, mind you, may be a misinterpretation by a scared Schwartz; there is every chance that B S man pulled in one direction whereas Stride pulled in the other, and he lost his grip. In such a case, there was never any violence intended at that stage.
Also, the fact that he initially tried to drag her away from the spot where she was standing, into the Street, may be seen as a reinforcement of a much less violent scenario than the usual interpretation.

To some extent, this is why I say that we may well not be dealing with the ordinary ruffian here. Such a man could be expected to inflict more damage on her, slap her, punch her, bruise her. But that seems not to have happened, at least not to any significant extent.

...which is why I suggest that between her fall outside the yard and the moment she had her throat cut, the scene in Dutfield´s Yard was not one of violence, but one of a discussion inbetween the two, somewhat heated on her behalf. And somewhere along the line she went too far, telling him that they were through or saying something derogatory, mocking him, whatever ... and it was enough to cause the sudden rage that had her killed seconds later.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Dan Norder]

Why would he head to an obscure, ill-lit backwater like Berner Street - let alone Dutfield's Yard - in search of prey?

To take a wild stab here, because there were pubs in the area, not to mention the club itself, and according to the club's members prostitutes were known to frequent the area. Certainly makes more sense than, say, Hanbury Street or Buck's Row.

[Elias]

Why would he head to an obscure, ill-lit backwater like Berner Street - let alone Dutfield's Yard - in search of prey? I might understand him picking up with Stride somewhere more auspicious - outside a pub, say, or on Commercial Road - and walking with her to some secluded spot, much as I suspect happened with most of the others. However, that's not the scenario we have here, if BS was not the man who killed her. She's already in the secluded spot, so what brought her killer there, if he wasn't BS?

Could it just be pure luck that he stumbled upon Stride where he did? We don't really know anything about Jack's movements prior to his attacks, and the only areas we can place him in, the SOC's, were probably places he'd been led to by the victims. Could it not be that on the nights when he was out looking for a victim, he walked the streets for a good while, down dark alleys, into secluded spots, hoping to find a victim?

[Sam Flynn]

Could it not be that on the nights when he was out looking for a victim, he walked the streets for a good while, down dark alleys, into secluded spots, hoping to find a victim?

He may have, Elias, although that doesn't strike me as a particularly economical or reliable strategy for someone who had an arguably strong compulsion to kill and mutilate.

Aside from that, there remains the question, if Jack was not BS, of what were the odds of his happening to wander down that particular street, just after BS had scuffled with Liz and left the scene?

[c.d.]

He may have, Elias, although that doesn't strike me as a particularly economical or reliable strategy for someone who had an arguably strong compulsion to kill and mutilate.

Aside from that, there remains the question, if Jack was not BS, of what were the odds of his happening to wander down that particular street, just after BS had scuffled with Liz and left the scene?

Hi Sam,

Well Jack had to be physically somewhere on the planet. And it seems that most people are in agreement that a prostitute being shoved to the ground is not a remarkably unique event. There is no connection between the BS man and Jack (assuming they are not the same person). So what the BS man did, does not affect Jack walking down a particular street.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

So what the BS man did, does not affect Jack walking down a particular street.

True, CD, but my question was more about the bare probability of two different men finding Liz Stride and perpetrating violence upon her, within a mere handful of minutes, in precisely the same location - rather than whether or not the actions of BS could influence where Jack decided to walk. (I know you weren't implying the latter, but I just wanted to make the distinction.)

[Elias]

Aside from that, there remains the question, if Jack was not BS, of what were the odds of his happening to wander down that particular street, just after BS had scuffled with Liz and left the scene?

Hi Sam,

Well it would no doubt be seen as a very large slice of 'luck' for Jack, but it's by no means impossible. If we continue with the idea that he roamed the streets regularly (not something I'm sure about, just an idea) then there were no doubt plenty of nights when he didn't get what he wanted. If the Stride attack is looked upon in the context of a larger period of time of not getting what he wanted when he was out, happening on Stride one night seems less fortuitous I think. I suppose it's like the old adage of tossing coin often enough to get 10 straight heads.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Elias,

I suppose it's like the old adage of tossing coin often enough to get 10 straight heads...

...into which we have to factor the apparent desertion of Jack's throat-cutting technique (he seems to have forgotten or failed to use the usual deep, circumferential cut this time), the possibility that he may have used a different knife, and the odds of his being interrupted just before he could roll the body over, or inflict another cut to the neck or the abdomen. Not impossible, I grant you - but that's one heck of a sequence of events (single or double) to account for.

Against this, we have the scenario of BS man scuffling with Liz, losing it, swiftly cutting her throat, and sloping away, long before any interruptions arrive on the scene.