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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > General Suspect Discussion

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  #101  
Old 05-10-2016, 10:28 PM
Craig H Craig H is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Hi Craig,

My view on those 3

Lawende does appear to be highly regarded by the police, and it is probably a reasonable description, the question is was the woman Eddowes?
I would suggest a high degree of probability she was, and that the man was the Killer

P.C. Smith, one would assume the description is accurate, the issues here are again the Id of the woman and the time.
If the woman was stride, the next question is? Was the man seen with her the killer?

This is of course impossible to say, and it revolves around her time of death. If the conventional time, then he is with Stride for a considerable time before killing her, which while not ruling him out does raise other questions.
The timing of her death has recently been debated with some heat on the boards.

Schwartz is a witness who divides opinion, some will argue he is very important, others that he was not. Exactly what the police made of him is hard to say. His non appearance at the inquest can be taken to support both points of view.
If he is telling the truth, he almost certainly saw the killer of Stride, it then goes to is Stride a victim of JtR. That again is a very contentious issue is it not? and certainly not for this thread I think.

There are differences between the 3 description, but there is a general agreement on many issues has you point out.

Note you do not mention Elizabeth Long, the question of did she see Chapman will be argued by many because of Dr Phillips and his TOD.

Again that’s another thread!

However her description is of an older man, it is very vague at best, even the high estimate does not help:

"appeared to be a little taller than deceased".

Chapman was 5ft tall, so that does not help, was the man stooping, bending, or standing upright? She said "appeared" so maybe not sure.


How far that gets us I am not sure

Steve
Hi Steve,

Good to hear from you.

Yes - I looked at the Long sighting for Chapman, but - like you - thought there were too many questions. The others appear a stronger fit.

Also agree with you on whether Schwartz is credible. As you say, people seem divided on it.

Your comments on PC Smith spending a lot of time with Stride ..... do you mean Marshall (who saw someone an hour before the murder) ? PC Smith's observation was about 15 - 30 minutes before her death.

All the best

Craig
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  #102  
Old 05-11-2016, 02:43 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by Craig H View Post
Hi Steve,

Good to hear from you.

Yes - I looked at the Long sighting for Chapman, but - like you - thought there were too many questions. The others appear a stronger fit.

Also agree with you on whether Schwartz is credible. As you say, people seem divided on it.

Your comments on PC Smith spending a lot of time with Stride ..... do you mean Marshall (who saw someone an hour before the murder) ? PC Smith's observation was about 15 - 30 minutes before her death.

All the best

Craig
On the issue of Smith, his report is based at 12.30.
Blackwell suggests a time of death of about 11.55 approx. However this has been hotly debated.

Even if we take Schwartz and his time of about 12.45 as the time of the attack. And he being the interruption rather than Louis Diemschutz, we still have a period of about 15minutes in which the killer is just chatting.
I personally don't see that, of course it is just a feeling, so can be completely wrong on that, which am happy to accept.

Steve
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  #103  
Old 05-11-2016, 02:56 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
On the issue of Smith, his report is based at 12.30.
Blackwell suggests a time of death of about 11.55 approx. However this has been hotly debated.

Even if we take Schwartz and his time of about 12.45 as the time of the attack. And he being the interruption rather than Louis Diemschutz, we still have a period of about 15minutes in which the killer is just chatting.
I personally don't see that, of course it is just a feeling, so can be completely wrong on that, which am happy to accept.

Steve
Hi Steve,

I think it much more likely that PC Smith's sighting occurred between 12:40 and 12:45, which is one of the factors that undermines Schwartz's evidence, and leads me to conclude that he probably saw Stride with her killer.
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  #104  
Old 05-11-2016, 03:09 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
Hi Steve,

I think it much more likely that PC Smith's sighting occurred between 12:40 and 12:45, which is one of the factors that undermines Schwartz's evidence, and leads me to conclude that he probably saw Stride with her killer.
John

While that may be true, once we start changing the timings given by witness, do we not damage the reliability of those very reports?

I would expect a police officer to less than 10 minutes out in his timings.
Do we not rely on the timings of Harvey and Watkins on Mitre square, and has not research been conducted to show that the timings appear to be reasonably accurate.

Do we not, in reality, attempt to move Smith because of the gap between his sighting and the finding of the body? To make him more likely to have seen the Killer!

However lets just say that interpretation is correct, to my mind that makes Schwartz more likely to be right than not. I do not see it undermining him at all!
I have seen that argument in the past; but to be honest I have never really understood it.

However those point have and will continue to be debated for a long time will they not?

All the best

Steve
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  #105  
Old 05-11-2016, 03:30 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
John

While that may be true, once we start changing the timings given by witness, do we not damage the reliability of those very reports?

I would expect a police officer to less than 10 minutes out in his timings.
Do we not rely on the timings of Harvey and Watkins on Mitre square, and has not research been conducted to show that the timings appear to be reasonably accurate.

Do we not, in reality, attempt to move Smith because of the gap between his sighting and the finding of the body? To make him more likely to have seen the Killer!

However lets just say that interpretation is correct, to my mind that makes Schwartz more likely to be right than not. I do not see it undermining him at all!
I have seen that argument in the past; but to be honest I have never really understood it.

However those point have and will continue to be debated for a long time will they not?

All the best

Steve
Hi Steve,

It's very likely that PC Smith was out by about 10 minutes. If you read the inquest reports, he estimated that he returned to Berner Street at 1:00am, and therefore estimated the timing of his sighting of Stride and the suspect at 12:30/12:35, i.e. based on the assumption his beat circuit took 25 to 30 minutes.

However, this can't possibly be correct. Thus, when he arrived at the murder scene PC Lamb was already in situ, and we know he arrived at about 1:05, I.e. 10 to 12 minutes before Dr Blackwell. Moreover, he stayed only a brief time, just checking to make sure the victim was dead, before going for an ambulance. And, on the way out, he passed Edward Johnson, who timed his arrival 3 or for minutes before Dr Blackwell, so about 1:12-1:13.

This means that PC Smith probably arrived at about 1:10, not 1:00am as he mistakenly thought, meaning he was last on Berner Street between 12:40 and 12:45, and not as he estimated, 12:30 to 12:35.

There are a number of factors that undermine Schwartz: unresolved cachous argument; conflicting newspaper and police accounts; no one hearing the struggle he claims to have witnessed; lack of damage to Stride's dress; lack of bruising or grazing to Stride's body; lack of defensive wounds...

In fact, all the evidence points to Stride having been taken completely by surprise, oblivious to the danger she was in, which accords perfectly with JtR's MO, but not a drunken fool like BS man.

Last edited by John G : 05-11-2016 at 03:42 AM.
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  #106  
Old 05-11-2016, 03:45 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
Hi Steve,

It's very likely that PC Smith was out by about 10 minutes. If you read the inquest reports, he estimated that he returned to Berner Street at 1:00am, and therefore estimated the timing of his sighting of Stride and the suspect at 12:30/12:35, i.e. based on the assumption his beat circuit took 25 to 30 minutes.

However, this can't possibly be correct. Thus, when he arrived at the murder scene PC Lamb was already in situ, and we know he arrived at about 1:05, I.e. 10 to 12 minutes before Dr Blackwell. Moreover, he stayed only a brief time, just checking to make sure the victim was dead, before going for an ambulance. And, on the way out, he passed Edward Johnson, who timed his arrival 3 or for minutes before Dr Blackwell, so about 1:12-1:13.

This means that PC Smith probably arrived at about 1:10, not 1:00am as he mistakenly thought, meaning he was last on Berner Street between 12:40 and 12:45, and not as he estimated, 12:30 to 12:35.

John

I have no problem with 5 minutes, it's stretching it to 10 I have a problem with.

you say it can't be correct, why?


Even if he was there at 12.45, he does not undermine Schwartz in my opinion purely on time, as he could have been out himself, if he told the truth.
Of course we cannot know if he did or not, despite what many say.


Cheers

Steve
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  #107  
Old 05-11-2016, 03:48 AM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
John

I have no problem with 5 minutes, it's stretching it to 10 I have a problem with.

you say it can't be correct, why?


Even if he was there at 12.45, he does not undermine Schwartz in my opinion purely on time, as he could have been out himself, if he told the truth.
Of course we cannot know if he did or not, despite what many say.


Cheers

Steve
Hi Steve,

PC Smith's own evidence demonstrates he was out by 10 minutes. Read the inquest report, where he estimates his arrival on Berner Street as being 1:00am, whereas it must have been about 1:10, unless you're suggesting Dr Blackwell, Edward Johnson and PC Lamb were wrong with their timings. And let's not forget the body wasn't even discovered until 1:00am!
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  #108  
Old 05-11-2016, 03:52 AM
Elamarna Elamarna is offline
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Originally Posted by John G View Post
Hi Steve,

PC Smith's own evidence demonstrates he was out by 10 minutes. Read the inquest report, where he estimates his arrival on Berner Street as being 1:00am, whereas it must have been about 1:10, unless you're suggesting Dr Blackwell and Edward Johnson were wrong with their timings.
Thanks John,

That spells it out clearly.
I will still go for 1.05, which i think is equally plausible and arguable. thus negating the need for a sighting at 12.45.

I think we may not agree on this one

regards

Steven
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  #109  
Old 05-11-2016, 04:01 AM
John G John G is offline
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Originally Posted by Elamarna View Post
Thanks John,

That spells it out clearly.
I will still go for 1.05, which i think is equally plausible and arguable. thus negating the need for a sighting at 12.45.

I think we may not agree on this one

regards

Steven
Hi Steve

Fair enough. However, the reason I would reject 1:05 is because that is the time PC Lamb arrived and, of course, he was already there when PC Smith noticed the crowd outside the gates. And, as I noted, he seems to have stayed a very brief time, maybe only a minute or two or just a few seconds, before seeing Edward Johnson, who arrived at 1:12-13, on his way out.

This is what he said at the inquest:

'When I came to the spot two constables had already arrived...I saw that the woman was dead, and I went to the police station for the ambulance, leaving the other constables in charge of the body. Dr Blackwell's assistant arrived just as I was going away."
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  #110  
Old 05-11-2016, 04:20 AM
Craig H Craig H is offline
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Hi John

Interesting about what you say on doubting Schwarts testimony. Can you expand ?

His witness statement seems strange to me. It sounds more like someone who doesn't speak English who didn't want to get in trouble with the police.

Rgds
Craig
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