Relatives

[curious4]

Which makes me wonder if "spent some time in an infirmary" in Cardiff might actually be suggestive of time spent in a sanatorium recovering from TB.

Hello Bridewell,

That's the way I've always interpreted it anyway.

Cheers,
C4

[curious4]

Hello again Miss M.,

We all have our own theories, and I agree that Mary was a drinker, but I think people tend to tell the truth when drunk, especially to those closest to them.

The point I was trying to make is that we should consider looking further back for Mary's birthdate as she has been so hard to trace.

I would be interested to know where you got your facts about french brothels from.

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Hello Chris,

Wasn't Mary said to have had six brothers and no sisters?

Best wishes,
C4

[Chris Scott]

Hi C4
Barnett's various accounts suggest that there were 6 or 7 brothers and one sister who worked in the markets selling material

[curious4]

relatives

Hello Chris,

Actually now you mention it a sister selling material at the market or travelling round selling material does ring a bell.

Thanks!
C4

[miss marple]

C4
I think everything she said is true apart from being married.
Of course many researchers have spread out the timescale. I have spent lots of time looking back as far as 1850. But quite honestly I dont think she was older than 25, there is no evidence to suggest she was, but plenty to suggest she was a young woman.The difference between 25 and 35 if you had been whoring and drinking for nearly twenty years is great,but her skin, her body would show age, even if she had had an ok life.
I am always intrigued by the one part of her in the photo that is still in tact, her arm, its a young woman's arm. I used to draw a lot of life models at art school etc and you learn to spot changes in the body.
I have read tons of stuff on Victorian social history, history of prostitution etc.
There is loads of good reading available.
Many girls were shipped off to France
Mayhew writing in the early 1860s talks about the girls decoyed to the French ports of Dieppe,Harvre and Ostend on the pretex of a good salary and light housework where they then were placed in bawdy houses, many were made to sign a a sort of contract. [ Like the traffic in girls today from Eastern Europe or Africa who think they are coming to work and end up in brothels.
This happened to a young girl Mayhew had spoken to. She begged a young English man [who frequented the house] to save her. who said she go to the British Consul and lay her case before him. She was watched all the time and had to lay low until they trusted her to go for a walk in town to solicit for custom. The ploy worked and she was granted a passport and money home,
I will quote the final paragraph in full because it is what happened to Mary and so many others.

''Arrived in England, she found her friends reluctant to believe the tale she told them, and found herself thrown on her own resources. Without a charactor and with a mind so very much disturbed, she found it difficult to do anything respectable, and at last had recourse to prostitution; -so difficult it is to come back to the right path once we have strayed from it.''

I think that sums it up for Mary Jane

Miss Marple

[curious4]

relstives

Hello miss m.

Yes, I am familiar with Mayhew and Stead's Maiden Tribute, just thought you had another source

C4

[miss marple]

Just looking at Chris's description again of the supposed Ameriican picture of Mary Kelly in a ' broad brimmed hat' I thought no that's not right. Broad brimmed hats for woman did not come in fashion till the 1890s and only got really big in the 1900s
The early part of Victoria's reign was the bonnet, which framed the face and suited ringlets. By 1860s with hair styles off the face hats got small, pillboxes perched on top of the head, as hairstyles got more elaborate and curled at the back and on top of the head in the 1870s and 80s small bonnets came back but were perched on top of the head with small turned up brims,often decorated with feathers and flowers and ribbons, they were an adjunct to the elaborate hairstyles'
The true broad brimmed picture hat was very popular in the 1900s. If Mary in the photo was wearing one of those, its unlikely the photo is from the1880s, also the clothes will date it.
Just a thought, as we can't see the photo there is no way of dating it. Bridget's sleeve looks like the 1890s

Miss Marple

C4 I ve also got Walter's Secret Diaries and read lots of socialogical stuff , but I think the Mayhew is apposite to Mary's supposed situation

[Robert]

Hi Miss Marple

I'm here to be shot down in flames on women's fashion, but here goes :

Could the establishment in Paris where Mary worked have photographed the women as advertisements? Maybe they gave them broad-brimmed hats to wear? (I'm assuming that Paris is a few years ahead of London in fashion matters). Or perhaps the Paris dresses and broad-brimmed hats were the stuff that Mary went back to collect from Mrs Carthy? In which case she might possibly have had herself photographed in them before flogging them.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
All the talk on fashion is worthless unless the Kelly photograph[ depicting just her] is analysed by a expert on period dress.and only Chris is in that position.
We can however speculate that as Kelly is not in the family shot,that photo was either initially with the family , or passed on to them after Mary's death , maybe via her brother.
We can't be certain why the family went to America, it certainly was not unusual of the period, and if the 'shame' was a factor, then why retain a memory, which would have been painful to have amongst their album .
It appears that I am the only one on this thread that asks relevant questions, and although Chris is not in a position to oblige further , he has placed it on Casebook, so it is free to voice opinions.
Regards Richard.

[jason_c]

Hi.
All the talk on fashion is worthless unless the Kelly photograph[ depicting just her] is analysed by a expert on period dress.and only Chris is in that position.
We can however speculate that as Kelly is not in the family shot,that photo was either initially with the family , or passed on to them after Mary's death , maybe via her brother.
We can't be certain why the family went to America, it certainly was not unusual of the period, and if the 'shame' was a factor, then why retain a memory, which would have been painful to have amongst their album .
It appears that I am the only one on this thread that asks relevant questions, and although Chris is not in a position to oblige further , he has placed it on Casebook, so it is free to voice opinions.
Regards Richard.

Richard,

There is no reason as to why a "shamed" relative would necessarily have photographs of them destroyed by the family. Her photograph may not have been wheeled out at family gatherings, but a record of her could easily have been kept.

Photographs were more treasured back then I assume. It was not a society of cheap polaroids or mobile phone cameras. And who's to say what the feelings of her family were. A mixture of regret, love, shame, guilt and sadness perhaps?

[Chris Scott]

With rapidly gained permission to show the alleged MJK picture with the face obscured (I hate all this cloak and dagger stuff!) it is below for anyone who is conversant with 19th century fashion and can date it approximately from that.
This really is as far as I can go at present.
Chris

[robhouse]

Very interesting! Well done Chris. I hope it is real, and that we get to see it at some point.

Rob H

[jason_c]

Thanks Chris.

Here's a link to a site with hats from the LVP and later. Scroll down.

http://gallery.villagehatshop.com/gallery/

[miss marple]

Thanks for showing the photo Chris, I hate to pour cold water on this but the the hat and coat design is typically Edwardian about 1900 -5. The curved brimmed big hat with ostrich feathers is characteristic of the period and the big embroidered lapel jacket.
Mary died in 1888 and women's fashion underwent considerable change in the twenty years following, the dress profile changed and hats changed completely.Also if she had at some point expensive clothes they would probably date from the early 80s, not twenty years later!
1880S dresses had tight narrow sleeves, buttoned jackets,small or no lapels and massive bustles placing all the emphasis on the behind,Small hats perched on top of head.
In the 1890s the leg of mutton sleeve came in gathered and very full at the top, shrinking of bustles, different corsets.
The picture hat in the photo was immensely fashionable in 1895-1905 often worn by actresses of the day in picture postcards.

Regards Miss Marple