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Douible Event Triangulation

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  • Douible Event Triangulation

    I have often thought, as we have a probable direction of travel for the murderer from Mitre Square (Eddowes' Apron / Goulston St) what it pity it is that we have nothing similar from any of the other murders. It seems to me likely that a killer's first instinct will be to head, if not for home, then at least for a safe haven. He might deviate after giving the matter some thought, or be forced to divert to avoid the police, but it seems reasonable, at least tentatively, to make that assumption. The Star is perhaps not the source one might choose for reliability, but the following is from its issue dated 1st October 1888:

    "From two different sources we have the story that a man when passing through Church-lane at about half-past one, saw a man sitting on a door-step and wiping his hands. As every one is on the look out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat."

    The time would have to be inaccurate for this to be a genuine sighting. 1.30 would mean that the killer hadn't gone far ( - perhaps hadn't been able to? - ) and would also be cutting it fine for Mitre Square. The mention of the "sailor's hat" is intriguing though. Did it feature in descriptions before the Double Event murders & could The Star have got wind of it in such a short space of time? If and I accept that it's a very big if, this is a genuine sighting, it would mean that the killer's initial movement was approximately north-north-west from Berner Street. I've drawn lines from Mitre Square through the Wentworth New Model Dwellings (roughly north-east), and from Berner Street through Church Lane to see where they intersect. There would need to be a degree of approximation factored in, but the cross-over is on Flower & Dean Street about one third of the way along from the Commercial Street end. The lines continue and form a 'V' upwards from that point which, towards the top end of the search area, runs from Spital Square in the west, to Spital St in the east (using an 1894 OS map).
    It would mean that the killer did not travel to Mitre Square by the most direct route. He would have needed to turn back to the south-west, possibly after reaching Wentworth Street but, once he's well to the north of Whitechapel Road, he's not coming from the direction of the Berner Street murder scene, so is less likely to be challenged. (Of course the whole edifice comes crashing down if Stride was not a Ripper murder!)
    I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

  • #2
    Could you scan your map and attach it?
    I tried to follow your thoughts, but the map I have has a low resolution, hardly any street names are discernible.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by K-453 View Post
      Could you scan your map and attach it?
      I tried to follow your thoughts, but the map I have has a low resolution, hardly any street names are discernible.
      Hello, K-453,
      There's a very good 1894 Ordnance survey map on this site. Look under "official documents".

      Best wishes,
      Steve.

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      • #4
        Thanks, Steven.

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        • #5
          You're welcome.

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          • #6
            Hello K-453

            I've looked at the map referred to, which is the same one that I have. (I found it under Victorian London).I'm not sure that scanning the one I have would add anything. If it helps, I got my copy of the 1894 Ordinance Survey Map (a reproduction) from ebay for about £2.50p + postage. They're scaled down from the original, but still clear. Worth getting at that price.
            I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

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            • #7
              Bridewell,

              From two different sources we have the story that a man when passing through Church-lane at about half-past one,

              To begin with, the tale is -- at best -- third-hand, which does not instill confidence. Moreover, what was the man doing? He was "wiping his hands," which means he could have just had a jam tart, slice of pie, encountered some scurvy slurry or messed his hands doing any of a hundred other innocent things (he who sliced Stride's throat is not likely to have suffered much blood staining anyway). Oh, and he looked suspicious and tried to hide his face, as if most of us would not so react to a perfect stranger staring at us.

              It's a non-starter of a story I fear.

              Don.
              "To expose [the Senator] is rather like performing acts of charity among the deserving poor; it needs to be done and it makes one feel good, but it does nothing to end the problem."

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi, Don.

                I did describe it as a "very big if" in the original post.
                I'd agree entirely, were it not for the reference to a "sailor's hat". I'm quite content to be proved wrong, but I don't think that detail had been published at the time. The Star would need to have been extremely quick off the mark to pick up on that, as an invented detail, in time for the 1st October edition.

                There are, as you say, innocent explanations for a man wiping his hands and hiding his face from an observer, but there is also at least one guilty one. This was at 1.30am, on a door-step a couple of hundred yards from a murder scene, thirty minutes after the murder. The probability (which I concede) that this was not related to the murder does not eliminate the possibility (however remote) that it was.
                I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

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                • #9
                  If you go to www.alangodfreymaps.co.uk they have a superb selection of large scale inexpensive reproduction maps of London (& elsewhere)

                  A warning though. They are very addictive!!

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                  • #10
                    Thanks for that, Roadnight. I've just checked and it's the Godfrey edition of the 1894 "Whitechapel, Spitalfields & The Bank" which I bought on ebay. They are very good value I think.
                    I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have been searching the casebook all day for this, and I'm sure it's been thought of before, but this seems as good a place to put this question as I can find.

                      How did the killer (and I assume it was JTR) get out of Dutfield's Yard?

                      As the details go, Diemschutz drove into the yard with a pony and a cart, the horse shied, the yard was so dark that he was unable to see her body without lighting a match. With blood still flowing from a wound in her neck, it appeared that she was killed just moments before he arrived.

                      Therefore, Diemschutz shut the gates to the yard so no one could enter or leave.

                      If he interupted the murderer it would mean the murderer was closeby. He couldn't drive his pony in through the gates without seeing the murderer run out of them, ahead of the cart just coming into the yard (I presume Berner Street was lit to enable someone leaving the dark corridor to be visible). He would remember that detail after finding a dead woman.

                      If the murderer was locked in the yard was there anyway out? Did he go over the rooftops? Into a building, from the maps I see no exit except for the Dutfield enterance from Berner street?

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                      • #12
                        exit

                        Hello Beowulf. I believe that the gates were open for a bit.

                        But have you considered that her killer might have gone back through the side door of the club and integrated with the crowd?

                        Cheers.
                        LC

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                        • #13
                          oh, whoa. For hours I've been obsessing over this. Yes, I'm sure that is the answer, or at least the most probable. Didn't realize the doors from that building faced Berner street.

                          Lol. Thanks.

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                          • #14
                            access

                            Hello Beowulf. Yes, and it would be easy to go through the side door and then out to Berner.

                            Cheers.
                            LC

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                            • #15
                              Diemshutz didn't shut the gates at that time.

                              The gates were closed upon the instruction of PC Lamb, who arrived on the scene some minutes after the discovery of Stride. Leaving plenty of time for the killer to escape.

                              Plus, there's no evidence to suggest the killer hadn't left the yard before Diemshutz entered.

                              As for escaping from the yard, unless he scaled high walls and clambered over rooftops, in darkness, then the chance are he simply walked out.

                              Monty
                              Monty

                              https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                              Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                              http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

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