How drunk was eddowes?

[packers stem]

As far as 19th century east end goes i'm sure drunks were quite commonplace and probably rarely arrested unless totally incapably drunk.
For someone to be totally out of it 'impersonating fire engines and then attempting to sleep on the pavement' to 4 hours later waking up singing to herself and seemingly capable seems quite bizarre particularly considering how exhausted she would have been after a long walk back from Kent the day before.
I'd expect someone who was drunk and tired enough to want to sleep on a pavement to be out for a good 8-10 hours or is alcohol diferent now

[Steven Russell]

To a habitual heavy drinker, four hours would make a great deal of difference. To me, the fact that Eddowes was singing to herself together with her chirpy "Goodnight, old ****" suggests that she was a) still pretty tight without being "sloppy drunk" and b) not massively concerned about having been locked up. Perhaps this was a semi-regular occurrence. I expect she was released as soon as it was considered that she no longer posed a danger to herself or others. As you say, drunkenness would have been common so the cells would have been full to bursting if police waited until people were absolutely sober before releasing them.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Steven Russell]

Can't believe that got edited!

[packers stem]

Hi steve
Trouble is we have no evidence that she was a habitual drinker.The inquest testimony suggest otherwise.I just find the whole scenario bizarre.

[corey123]

Hello Stem,

Not so bizarre, just a bad coincidence. Obviously she was drunk at the moment, and remember her sister stating that she was not a drinker by habit but when she drank it was in excess?


Edit: My apologies. It wasn't Eliza Gold but instead John Kelly who stated that.

[lynn cates]

Friday?

Hello Packer. Are you certain she walked from Kent on Friday--the day before?

Cheers.
LC

[Steven Russell]

Hello Stem,

Not so bizarre, just a bad coincidence. Obviously she was drunk at the moment, and remember her sister stating that she was not a drinker by habit but when she drank it was in excess?


Edit: My apologies. It wasn't Eliza Gold but instead John Kelly who stated that.

And that's through the don't-speak-ill-of-the-dead filter.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[Adam Went]

Surely there's no way that Kate was completely sober when she was released from the police station. I mean she was clearly pretty far gone when she was picked up, and I would say that it's physically impossible to go from being that drunk to sober in that space of time - and if she was capable of it, i'd certainly like to know what her secret is!

Cheers,
Adam.

[Monty]

Eddowes, and any drunk for that matter, would have been released when deemed sober enough to look after themselves.

This was the City polices policy and the decision rested with the Inspector or the next highest ranking officer on duty in the station. In Eddowes case this was Sergeant Byfield. He deemed her to be capable and lucid, and therefore released her.

So yes, this does not mean Eddowes was completely sober. However she was aware of where she was, was able to control herself and, as mentioned, she was lucid and deemed capable.

Monty

[Addy]

And she wasn't released when she was singing to herself but a bit later. And indeed, prisoners were released when they could take care of themselves. In an age of heavy drinking, that was probably some time before they were completely sober.

Greetings,

Addy

[bolo]

Hello,

Trouble is we have no evidence that she was a habitual drinker.The inquest testimony suggest otherwise.I just find the whole scenario bizarre.

as far as I know, there are statements of some of Kate's family members in various books (Sugden, Begg, etc.) who mention her alcohol problem, so even if she wasn't a really heavy drinker or alcohol addict, she most probably was hardened enough to halfway sober up after a four hours rest.

Regards,

Boris

[Jason]

she had drunk at least 4 pints of boddies up to that point........

[corey123]

Jason, Bolo,


Remember during the post-mortem her liver was declared healthy.

[joelhall]

Just a quick (!) post on the effects of alcoholism (I know it's disputed whether Eddowes herself was a drunk but this seemed like the most apt place to post):

Someone with a long standing drink problem does not sober up the way most of us due. The damage over time of repeated intake of alcohol affects the liver and various other cells in the body. You will often see those who are alcohol dependent slurring and being fatigued when they have not had alcohol, added to which when they are 'sober' they will not reach the same state as those without a drink problem as their body is still taking time to recover from the multitude of previous episodes of alcohol intake.

It is actually somewhat of a myth that alcoholics can sober up quicker than other people. At a cellular level their ability to metabolise and remove toxins produced from alcohol metabolism are reduced due to the amount of work and stress they have been put under, and the body will often hold less water affecting rates of metabolism - ask any doctor for example the annoyance on trying to take blood tests from dehydrated alcoholics!

The first step in metabolism to alcohol, oxidised in the liver to produce a substance called acetaldehyde. A smaller effect also happens in the brain.

There is of course a limit to how efficiently the liver can do this, which is degraded with long term alcohol abuse - which is why alcoholics drink more before feeling the effcts, and why they seem to keep on drinking without getting more intoxicated.

Acetaldehyde is then further metabolised to acetic acid which can then be broken down to be excreted. (Both of these reactions are couple reactions with NAD ion reduction).

This cycle is of course hampered in those with chronic alcohol problems. The liver function is decreased, as well as other cellular functions throughout the body. This means alcoholics never really 'sober up' the same way as non-alcoholics, and the signs are often obvious of the body being under stress detoxifying itself - fatigue, slow movement, reduced musclular capacity, mental fog, reduced reaction time, tremoring, headaches, memory problems, reduced ability to utilise oxygen for activity, etc. Most of these can be attributed to acetaldehyde accumulating within other cells in the body or the cellular damage created by it.

Really it is the same process as that which happens when anyone drinks quicker than they can cope with the alcohol (which is why we get drunk), the difference being in the binge drinker or alcoholic, the processes are slowed down by still recovering from previous damage and use, and so has a longer lasting physical effect inside the body, and a longer lasting toxic effect. They can drink sometimes a very hefty amount before the concentration of these substances reaches high levels (if at all due to the amount they drink and metabolic impairment).

In the first stage of alcoholism, cells may adapt to alcohol and utilise some of the energy for normal functions (part of the reason alcohol withdrawal becomes so serious, often leading to death in very hardened alcoholics). However even before the liver accumulates fat, cellular damage is already done, affectin function of most of the body. However, repeatedly drinking will obviously have greater and greater effects, until the body becomes virtually dependent on it simply to function, and the damage becomes considerable.

In the non-alcoholic sobering up is often more efficient, but that is not to say lifestyle doesnt play a part which can affect the process to varying degrees. Poor diet, dehydration, lack of exercise, being underweight (from the post-mortem photos and descriptions, Eddowes herself was not a very big girl and would have had a harder time metabolising alcohol), even poor hygeine, will all play their parts, and even once sobered up there is the awful hangover stage to look forward to as the body is doing its cleaning out. The non-alcoholic does not have the same cellular adaption to alcohol as does the alcoholic, so whilst sobering normal functions can be even more impaired than that of the latter. I'm sure we've all been there (I certainly have and don't recommend it if you haven't). Needless to say because of the more efficient reactions taking place, concentrations of various toxins produced can often be higher in the non-alcoholic who has been drinking heavily too.

In short, sober or not, a drunk would not have been in much of a state to fight off an attacker, even though she may appear to no longer be drunk, regardless of whether she was an alcoholic.

[packers stem]

When i'm looking for facts i turn to two books first.The uncensored facts and the A-Z.Neither of these are pushing a suspect so therefore usually reliable.
Both of these state they arrived back on friday 28th.
They returned from Hunton near Maidstone.Now Maidstone is the best part of 30 miles from whitechapel,a fair old hike for someone in their 40's short of money and food .
As for catharine's drinking habits,John Kelly said that she sometimes drank to excess but was not in the habit of doing so and Eliza Gold said she was of sober habits.William Watkinson said she was not often in drink and generally in the lodging between 9.00 and 10.00 pm.
The only one to contradict and claim a habit was her daughter who she had not seen for two years and clearly disliked her enough to have changed addresses and not left a forwarding address for her.
Maybe Annie's dislike of her mother caused her to paint a rather worse picture.