Can anyone place roughly when Klosowski was in Whitechapel?

[Pablito]

This may have been posted on another thread but just wondered if anyone had this info as i know he lived between here any New York for many years. And if it co - incides with any of the times of the murders?

[Adam Went]

Pablito:

Klosowski lived at 126 Cable Street for the entire duration of the canonical murders. He had moved to London some time around mid-1887 .

Cheers,
Adam.

[Natalie Severn]

Adam,
I dont think anybody is quite sure exactly when Klosowski moved to London.But what we know for certain is that all the Polish records ceased in February 1887 when he received his award to practise as a Junior Surgeon.
Its also possible he had lodgings in George Yard like Abberline stated in 1903 to a Pall Mall Gazette reporter.Levisohn also stated in court in 1903 that he met him in the basement barber shop of the White Hart Pub George Yard in 1888 and that he was living there.
But both could be wrong as both were talking of something that was 15 years before.You are certainly right about his address in Cable Street in both 1888 and 1889 .Its recorded in the Post Office Directory.
Best
Norma

[Pablito]

Was it after the MJK murder that he moved away to New York? I'm confused. I thought from looking at the biog that he moved backwards and forwards between here and New York during the murders?

[Adam Went]

Nats:

Yes it would seem likely that Klosowski arrived in London somewhere around mid-1887, as an educated guess, because as you say his Polish records cease in February 1887, and we know that his first job after arriving in London was in West India Dock Road, likely in the latter part of 1887, and on to 126 Cable Street from there (1888-89).

Pablito:

Well it wasn't really "shortly" after the MJK murder.....Klosowski was still listed as living in Whitechapel in the 1891 census. He left for New York with Lucy Baderski soon after that. Philip Sugden suggests April 1891, shortly after the death of their infant son.

In any case, he wasn't there for long. He was back in London a year later.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Natalie Severn]

Was it after the MJK murder that he moved away to New York? I'm confused. I thought from looking at the biog that he moved backwards and forwards between here and New York during the murders?

Hello Pablito,
Chapman/Klosowski and his wife Lucy went to New York some time "around Whit" 1890 according to Lucy"s sister , Mrs Stanislaus Rauch. Lucy returned in February 1891 and Chapman followed at the end of May 1891,two weeks after their second child was born on May 12th.

[Pablito]

quite right, Natalie and Adam. Just re - read the biog and saw where my mistake has been made.

Just imagining that he was responsible for the Whitechapel Murders, one wonders why, when he came back to London he didn't carry on killing for such a long time. It seems like a while before he decided to continue on a different type of murder spree (if it was him).

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

The best that the Solicitor General, Sir Edward Carson, could do to pin down the date of Klosowski’s entry into Britain was to state, during his opening remarks at Klosowski’s trial, that he had arrived in London “about 1888.” Sir Edward was armed with all the information obtained by Scotland Yard from their thorough investigation into Klosowski’s activities, information which we don’t have today, yet could not be more precise than this as to the actual date. “About 1888,” therefore, is the best we can do given the information we now have.

We don’t know exactly when Klosowski and his wife Lucy moved to Jersey City, New Jersey. His sister-in-law stated that “…. I came over here in August, they went to America about the following Whitsuntide,” which would make it around the 17th of May, 1891. However, there is a ships passenger listing for a 27 year old barber named Severin Klasowsky, who arrived in New York on the 28th of July, 1891, with his wife “Any” on board the S. S. Friesland. Despite problems with the information provided by the listing, some believe that this is Klosowski and his wife.

Lucy Klosowski returned to London in February of 1892, giving birth to a daughter, Cecilia, that May. Severin followed his wife back to London in late May or early June of that same year.

Wolf.

[Natalie Severn]

Wolff,
Mrs Slanislaus Rauch claimed: "She [Lucy] came back[from America] alone in February 1891." [ court testimony]
However I believe you are right and that she got her date wrong because I think census information exists stating that Lucy and Klosowski were still in Whitechapel in 1891,at least up until mid April 1891 ,living close to George Yard in Tewksbury Buildings---but I cant find that census info on here right now.
Norma

[Chris Scott]

Hi Norma
here is the entry from 1891
2 Tewkesbury Buildings

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks so much Chris----what a brilliant find that was too! Do you know what the date of the census was by any chance?
Best
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

quite right, Natalie and Adam. Just re - read the biog and saw where my mistake has been made.

Just imagining that he was responsible for the Whitechapel Murders, one wonders why, when he came back to London he didn't carry on killing for such a long time. It seems like a while before he decided to continue on a different type of murder spree (if it was him).

If Chapman actually was Jack the Ripper, then I doubt he ever did stop killing for long. I think he probably murdered homeless people whose remains were never discovered. But as far as we know, the police did not dig up floor boards or the back yard or garden areas of the many places where Klosowski/Chapman had lodged. over the intervening years. These days they dredge canals , dig up floor boards, cellars etc but with Chapman, possibly because the Ripper"s main claim to fame had happened 15 years before the murder trial, it wasnt thought to be worth the effort .But judging by some modern serial murder cases, dozens of bodies have eventually been found that could be linked to the one serial killer.
Another reason I believe Chapman had been "at it" long long before 1903, is the comment made by his compatriot,Wolff Levisohn,.This witness at Chapman"s murder trial had had the same training in medicine/ surgery as Chapman/Klosowski back in Poland and had practised there as a feldscher [doctor"s assistant]. In Whitechapel he had become a travelling salesman in hairdressing materials and witness at Chapman"s trial.
Levisohn claimed he had been asked by Chapman, between the years 1888 and 1890 ,to get some "medicine" for him on one occasion, which Levisohn had refused to do, stating he "did not want to get twelve years".A frequent method of helping women to obtain abortions at the time was to obtain an "abortion drug" through the black market. Additionally.some of the Barber Shops at the time still acted like clinics or chemists, providing help with minor injuries etc. so an apt place for a woman to have gone or "advice".

[Chris Scott]

Hi Norma
The 1891 census took place on 5 April of that year.
The surname of the 17 year old assistant living with Klosowski and his wife (Max ?) is hard to read. Do we know any more about him?
Hope this helps
Chris

[Pablito]

Hi Natalie,

Yes, some barber shops also functioned as clinics of various kinds. They were identified by those strange twisting/ spinning red and white cannister thingys you still above many a barber shop now. I can think of a barber shop in Covent Garden i have frequented that still has one.

On your first point, its an interesting theory. Yes, i find in hard to believe that he would have stopped killing if it was him, between the Whitechapel Murders and his wives much later on, and if it was, we can assume he enjoyed despatching of women using a variety of methods. I emphasise that I really don't think that he would have stopped between 1888 and later on in his life. How could he resist the urge when it was apparently so overwhelmingly powerful?

But he would have had to have brought your theoretical victims back to his place in Cable Street and killed them and buried them with his wife there which seems unlikely... unless he brought them back to the barbers in Whitechapel High Street. In which case they would still be there somewhere under the White Hart pub... this is all massive and crazy speculation i'm indulging in you understand. But worthy i think.

Do you know if the police ever dug up any of Klosowski's properties? Or workplaces?

[Scott Nelson]

That would be Max(well) Starlice, a 47 year-old male assistant. A perfect occupation for someone with lice.