Cry Murder!

[Frank]

Maybe this is just another stupid question but I am a little confused about that.

In the night of Mary Jane Kelly's murder the witnesses Kennedy, Lewis and Prater heard a cry of "Murder!" from the direction of Kelly's room shortly before 4.00 a.m.
In the Tabram case it was mentioned that these cries were rather frequent in such a rough district.

I am no native speaker and so I wonder if it is common to cry "Murder!" instead of something like "Help!"

Best regards,
Frank

[kensei]

I've wondered about that too. In fact if the cry came from Kelly herself upon commencement of the attack, I would think that no actual words but just a general scream would be what escaped her lips. I've wondered if perhaps the "Oh, murder!" might have come from someone passing by who saw the killer emerge from the door covered in blood, or still holding his knife, or something like that.

[Robert]

Hi Frank

Don't worry, people in those days did in fact cry "Oh murder" when they were about to be murdered or while they were being murdered, and I've posted examples from "The Times" to prove it. But having done this two or three times, each time the subject's come up, I'm now having a break from it.

[perrymason]

Hi Frank

Don't worry, people in those days did in fact cry "Oh murder" when they were about to be murdered or while they were being murdered, and I've posted examples from "The Times" to prove it. But having done this two or three times, each time the subject's come up, I'm now having a break from it.

Maybe you tire of it because you neglect to point out each time that we have witnesses at the Nichols Inquest, the Kelly Inquest and general commentary from area residents that state "oh-murder" or any variant thereof often did not signal any danger, threat, or murder. It was used as an exclamation far more often than for murder...as attested to by the witness and residents comments.

And to correct one misconception here, no-one said that the cry came from Marys room. Both women described a location that referred to a courtyard voice,...not one from Mary or her room specifically.

Sorry if that deflates your assertion that most people who cried "oh-murder" in 1888 were actually being murdered at the time.

Best regards

[Robert]

Michael, how can it deflate an assertion which I never made? I said that people did cry "oh murder" in such circumstances, and I stand by that. Obviously I don't know how many people cried "oh murder" between, say, 1880 and 1900, nor how many of these were actually being murdered, nor what percentage of all the people who were murdered between those dates cried "oh murder."

Also, Frank's question seemed to me to suggest that he was having difficulty believing that a person in such dire circumstances would say something like that, so I'm happy to point out that it was perfectly possible.

[perrymason]

Michael, how can it deflate an assertion which I never made? I said that people did cry "oh murder" in such circumstances, and I stand by that. Obviously I don't know how many people cried "oh murder" between, say, 1880 and 1900, nor how many of these were actually being murdered, nor what percentage of all the people who were murdered between those dates cried "oh murder."

Also, Frank's question seemed to me to suggest that he was having difficulty believing that a person in such dire circumstances would say something like that, so I'm happy to point out that it was perfectly possible.

I can guarantee you that by the statements in these cases alone the phrase or its like was heard often, not occassionally... and the fixed number of murders that year,... that the accounts and stats suggest that the cry or its like was heard far more often in its benign form. Could this be a real cry for help.....sure, but the odds by far suggest not.

I think you may see a similar usage of a phrase like that today in "oh-****". It doesnt most often mean the speaker needs toilet paper, or is pointing some fecal matter out to someone.

Best regards....sorry about the tone, Im getting pissed about taking flack for logical reasonable extensions......and logically extending what is known about that phrase at the time, statistically, it would have been overwhelmingly intended far fewer times as its literal form.

[Frank]

Robert is right. I really only wondered about that exclamation in situations of danger. But if it was usual to cry "Murder!" rather than "Help!" these days, then it is okay. I think this is the sort of English my teachers never taughed me (or I missed it like so many other aspects of this language - but trust me, I try my best).
So it was something like the bad s-word nowadays?

[perrymason]

Robert is right. I really only wondered about that exclamation in situations of danger. But if it was usual to cry "Murder!" rather than "Help!" these days, then it is okay. I think this is the sort of English my teachers never taughed me (or I missed it like so many other aspects of this language - but trust me, I try my best).
So it was something like the bad s-word nowadays?

I was taking some frustration out on Robert, for that I apologize. But Im glad you get the contextual information you were seeking Frank.

Best regards

[Robert]

Hi Frank

Well, it could be used like "sh*t" or in the course of a quarrel, but it could also be used literally, and when the speaker was the person being murdered. This might seem a bit melodramatic to modern ears, but it did happen. I think I have even seen "I am murdered."

Michael, I don't really want to get into a long discussion about the Kelly murder, still less about Hutchinson, but I'll just state my view :

The cry may have come often, but not apparently in that place and on that night - at least, no one in the Court apart from Lewis and Prater reports hearing any cries. Mary was alive at 2 and dead by 11. Lewis said the cry seemed to come from the direction of Kelly's room. Prater and Lewis probably heard the same cry. Given the evidence from inside the room - the blood under the topmost corner of the mattress, etc - I go for the cry coming from Mary.

[perrymason]

Hi Frank

Well, it could be used like "sh*t" or in the course of a quarrel, but it could also be used literally, and when the speaker was the person being murdered. This might seem a bit melodramatic to modern ears, but it did happen. I think I have even seen "I am murdered."

Michael, I don't really want to get into a long discussion about the Kelly murder, still less about Hutchinson, but I'll just state my view :

The cry may have come often, but not apparently in that place and on that night - at least, no one in the Court apart from Lewis and Prater reports hearing any cries. Mary was alive at 2 and dead by 11. Lewis said the cry seemed to come from the direction of Kelly's room. Prater and Lewis probably heard the same cry. Given the evidence from inside the room - the blood under the topmost corner of the mattress, etc - I go for the cry coming from Mary.

Hi Robert,

Fair enough, but based on Elizabeth Praters remarks, that phrase was heard "often" in that area by her...and I dont think you will find murder statistics for the area surrounding Millers Court that suggest murder occurred often.

I would agree with you on the source of that cry....but its not certain that was Mary, just that it came from the direction of the court.

Best regards

[Sam Flynn]

I wonder whether "Oh, Murder!" wasn't a euphemism for the blasphemous usage of "Oh, Mother (of God)"? A bit like "My goodness" ("My God") or "Jeepers creepers" (Jesus Christ)?

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Makes more sense than it being an actual cry for help. Either that or I always assumed it to be an expression used by someone who was fed up, kind of like a sigh of exasperation.

If you were being murdered, you wouldn't say something so stupid as that, no matter how Victorian you are. I'd have thought you'd scream the f*cking gaff down, not literally tell everyone what's actually happening to you.

[IchabodCrane]

But I think the volume would be much different whether you're crying (most often I imagine would be more like mumbling to yourself) 'oh, murder' meaning s**t, and crying 'murder' out for help. The latter one would be much more audible. And if Robert is correct, then the usage suggests it would often be heard cried out loud when under attack, and assaults on women would have been frequent Whitechapel at the time, not least I assume quarrels between husband and wife that could turn violent. Whence a woman would cry 'Murder' to attract other peoples attention to her husband abusing her.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Well, if she did literally cry murder, then I'm only surprised she didn't scream ohmyboobisgettingstuffedundermyhead inbetween the mutilations, because that's how ridiculous it is to imagine.

If you're in serious, genuine danger of being slaughtered, you scream your lungs out and not much else.

[perrymason]

Makes more sense than it being an actual cry for help. Either that or I always assumed it to be an expression used by someone who was fed up, kind of like a sigh of exasperation.

If you were being murdered, you wouldn't say something so stupid as that, no matter how Victorian you are. I'd have thought you'd scream the f*cking gaff down, not literally tell everyone what's actually happening to you.

The above in bold is interesting when considering if uttered by Mary, she may have been waking up as she said it.

But Sams suggestions can be as benign as the above suggests too.

Cheers M & P