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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Social Chat > Other Mysteries > A6 Murders

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  #291  
Old 04-25-2008, 01:17 PM
jimarilyn jimarilyn is offline
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Default Return of Bob ?

Hi All

The thought has occurred to me lately that perhaps Bob from the old thread has returned to these message boards.
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  #292  
Old 04-25-2008, 07:10 PM
Steve Steve is offline
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Hello Peter

The man you are describing sounds very much like James Hanratty. Would you agree?

KR
Steve
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  #293  
Old 04-25-2008, 07:11 PM
Steve Steve is offline
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Originally Posted by jimarilyn View Post
Hi All

The thought has occurred to me lately that perhaps Bob from the old thread has returned to these message boards.
Do you think he is posing as PLA?
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  #294  
Old 04-25-2008, 07:22 PM
Steve Steve is offline
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Hi jimarilyn

1) I don’t think she was ‘utterly convinced’ that his name wasn’t Jim, she just supposed the gunman had given a false name

2) One of the most puzzling aspects of this case, but as I have said before France would have been aware of who Ewer was and where his shop was – it was just round the corner from the France’s flat

3) PLA (not Bob) made threatening phone calls to anyone he could think of

4) To ensure the police found it, to link it to the conversation about a ‘good place to hide things, etc’ and ultimately to link Hanratty with the crime

5) Only France himself could have known the true answer to that question

6) Another mystery, though perhaps he often behaved in that way when staying in a hotel. He certainly had a habit of forgetting to pay the bill before checking out

7) That was his lifestyle; staying in good hotels when he could afford it – like the Arial Hotel at Heathrow – and less good hotels when he couldn’t afford anything better. I never went to the Alexander Court Hotel, but I have been briefly inside the one next door that used to be in the same group, and you certainly want to wipe your feet on the way out

Kind regards,
Steve
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  #295  
Old 04-25-2008, 08:11 PM
jimarilyn jimarilyn is offline
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Evening all,

(No, it's not George Dixon here.)

During the course of very recent research into various aspects of this case I have discovered the following fascinating (IMHO) information regarding Charles France's eldest child Carole. I hope it's of interest to everyone on this thread :

Carole's birth (her real name is Carole A. Franz) was registered in the Pancras district during the 2nd quarter of 1945.

Her mother Charlotte A Russell and father Frederick Charles France were married sometime in the last 4 months of 1943, the marriage was registered in the Hammersmith district.

Carole's dad Charles committed suicide in mid March 1962.

Very soon afterwards the grieving 16 or 17 year old Carole married the 20 year old William J. Nutzlader junior. (The marriage being registered in the Pancras district sometime between July and September 1962).

William J. Nutzlader's father, William J. Nutzlader senior, married young William's mother, Kate E. Smith in 1941 (birth registered during the 3rd quarter of that year, in the Pancras district.

The 17 year old Carole gave birth to a son, Richard W. Nutzlader-Sanderson, in late 1962 or early 1963 (the birth was registered in the 1st quarter of 1963 in the Pancras district).


It didn't strike me at first, but then I started looking at the unusual name Nutzlader (of German origin ?) The first part of the name sounds a little like Nudds, could there be some connection I wondered (and still do) with the infamous William Nudds, especially as one of his many aliases was William George Richard Nudds (why Richard I wonder ?). Also, another well known alias of Nudds' was Jack Glickberg, and the name Glickberg definitely sounds as if it could be of German origin.

Could it be possible that William J. Nutzlader and William Nudds were one and the same person. However unlikely that may well be, if it is true then it proves a family connection between the Frances and the Nudds.

Anyhow, I better be off, before those men in white suits arrive.



PS. Excuse the length of this post
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  #296  
Old 04-25-2008, 08:23 PM
Steve Steve is offline
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I don’t know about George Dixon, more like Sherlock Holmes!

Where did the Sanderson part of the son’s surname come from?

I think it most unlikely that Carol married Nudds, he was very much older than her, and wasn’t he back in jail for fraud in 1962?

Anyway, well done on the research – very interesting.
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  #297  
Old 04-25-2008, 08:37 PM
jimarilyn jimarilyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I don’t know about George Dixon, more like Sherlock Holmes!

Where did the Sanderson part of the son’s surname come from?

I think it most unlikely that Carol married Nudds, he was very much older than her, and wasn’t he back in jail for fraud in 1962?

Hi Steve,

I don't know how the hyphenated Sanderson part of the surname came into being, it wasn't there in the 1941 marriage of his grandparents.

Also, I didn't say Carole married Nudds. She married the 20 year old William J. Nutzlader junior who was born in late 1941 or early 1942.

Last edited by jimarilyn : 04-25-2008 at 08:48 PM. Reason: should have read "grandparents" instead of parents
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  #298  
Old 04-25-2008, 10:52 PM
Graham Graham is offline
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Hi JM, Steve,

Reference JM's Post No 290, if I can add a comment or two of my own:

1] Agree with Steve. Valerie said that she thought 'Jim' was a name made up on the spur of the moment.

2] Thinking about this, I just wonder if perhaps Charles France and William Ewer may have known each other, and that France was aware that the victim of the A6 murder was Ewer's sister-in-law's husband. Ewer said in his statement to the Sunday Times that he'd only met France once in his life, when the latter came to apologise for the murder, and this is the only indication we have that France did just that. But I wonder if this, in fact, is true. As Steve says, it is possible that France was aware of Ewer's shop, and it could be that he, France, learned of Ewer's connection to the A6 Case via the press. But if this were the case, it was a strange thing for France to do - I'd have thought that France would have kept a very low profile.

3] PLA, as Steve says, made phone-calls to anyone and everyone connected with the case. He was, as Woffinden says, a master in the use of the telephone as an instrument of terror. For instance, he subjected Lord Russell to a prolonged harangue via the telephone, as well as Hanratty's parents and numerous others.

4] Agree with Steve. Hanratty must have eaten his liver when he realised the importance of his statement to France that 'the back seat of a bus is a good place to dispose of stuff'. I honestly think, after some reflection, that this more than anything apart from Valerie's ID put Hanratty's head in the noose.
But who put it there? I postulated earlier that the gun may well have belonged to France, and that when Hanratty returned it to him after the crime, France recalled what Hanratty had told him, and put the gun under the seat so that he, France, would not be linked with it. Again, France could well have been leaned on by the police: maybe Acott had definite proof that France owned the gun. Into the realms of supposition now, but probably more likely than unlikely.

5] This is the subject for an entire work. Ref [4] above, it may be that Hanratty asked France to lend him the gun (assuming that it was France's) so he could carry out a lucrative stick-up. When it became clear to France that 'his' gun was the A6 murder-weapon, that could have tipped him over the edge. Or, perhaps more realistically, France just could not cope with the concept that he and his family were on friendly terms with a killer and a rapist. Until and unless ALL of France's notes are made public (if they still exist) we'll probably never know. But there is absolutely no doubt about that France was running scared, and perceived himself to be a potential accessory to murder, which would have put him away for a very long time.

6] PLA was a total and complete weird-o. Whether he was involved in the A6 Case or not, such behaviour as he exhibited at the Alexandra Court was typical of him. He was checked in at the Alexandra under a false name and address, doubtless with the intention of scarpering before he paid his bill, and it was only the complaints of other guests and the manager that he was reported to the police - but whether per Acott's plea to hotel managers, etc., to report anyone who was acting strangely, or because simply of his behaviour I can't tell. When the police visited PLA, they found newspapers referring to the A6 Case in his luggage, but didn't react because that was purely circumstantial.

7] Agree with Steve. When PLA had the money (and sometimes when he didn't) he stayed in hotels. He was the absolute typical 'person of no fixed address'. He said that he'd tried to get a room at The Broadway House, but when he found it was full he was directed to The Vienna, where he stayed for one night before moving on to The Alexandra - presumably a better-class establishment. The police, after interviewing him, told him to re-register in his real name at The Alexandra, which he did. That, as far as the police were concerned, was that. Until, of course, the cartridge-cases were found at The Vienna, and the police discovered that the man supposedly staying in that room was Peter Louis Alphon, a.k.a. Frederick Durrant, which name they knew from the business at The Alexandra.

PLA came so close to being nailed for the A6 murder, it stretches credibility. Any lesser man would have run a mile, but not he. Once he was off the hook (and he came very close to being on it) he milked the situation for all it was worth. Had the annoyed guests at The Alexandra kept their annoyance to themselves, then I rather think that the A6 Case would have gone down in history as one of the great unsolved murder-cases.

Cheers,

Graham
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  #299  
Old 04-26-2008, 12:03 AM
Steve Steve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
it may be that Hanratty asked France to lend him the gun (assuming that it was France's) so he could carry out a lucrative stick-up. When it became clear to France that 'his' gun was the A6 murder-weapon, that could have tipped him over the edge.

7] Agree with Steve. He said that he'd tried to get a room at The Broadway House, but when he found it was full he was directed to The Vienna, where he stayed for one night before moving on to The Alexandra - presumably a better-class establishment.

PLA came so close to being nailed for the A6 murder, then I rather think that the A6 Case would have gone down in history as one of the great unsolved murder-cases.
Hi Graham

Very good post, well thought out, superbly written and interesting as always. There are just a couple of points I think are worth re-examining:

 My own viewpoint, I am far from certain that the gun ever belonged, or was procured for Hanratty, by Dixie France
 I could well be wrong on this, but was it not Hanratty who originally booked into the Broadway House Hotel and was transferred to the Vienna because of lack of availability? I believe Alphon’s booking was directly at the Vienna, though I do stand to be corrected on this point. As an aside I never visited the Vienna, but I have been to the Broadway House, and that is a top-class hotel!

We said on the old thread that Alphon could well have been hanged for the Gregsten murder, Valerie truly and unintentionally spared him his life, but who knows if Hanratty would have escaped justice if Alphon had been tried for the murder. My own feeling on that particular point is that Dixie would have made sure that justice was done in any event.

Kind regards,
Steve
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  #300  
Old 04-26-2008, 12:27 AM
Steve Steve is offline
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Hi Graham

I've just checked and I stand to be corrected - Alphon did try to book into the Broadway House Hotel and was redirected to the Vienna.

Exactly the same as Hanratty, the same week!

Yet another coincidence in this case full of coincidences.

Kind regards,
Steve
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