Could Mary Jane Read or Write?

[Chava]

There are many reports that have our Mary Jane coming from people in relatively good society. In which case she would be literate. But I'm certain there was at least one story of a little boy reading the newspapers to her during the killing spree because she couldn't read them. Since the Education Reform earlier in the century, most working-class people could read. If Kelly couldn't, that would put her way down the social ladder.

[DVV]

Hi Chava,
according to Barnett, she used to ask him to read the newspapers. Whether she couldn't read or didn't like to, we cannot say.
Btw, for almost all Ripper victims, we have people saying: "She was educated", "she spoke well", "she wasn't like the other prostitutes", etc.
It tells a lot about what people imagine prostitutes to be, and what individuals are.

Amitiés,
David

[Jon Guy]

Hello Chava

McCarthy mentioned that she received letters from Ireland.

If the letters were read to her by Barnett he never mentioned reading them or any of the biographical detail that would have been included in the letter.

[Supe]

David,

according to Barnett, she used to ask him to read the newspapers. Whether she couldn't read or didn't like to, we cannot say.

It was pointed out in a presentation at the Wolverhampton Conference that this was probably a rare glimpse into the domestic scene at No. 13. Before HD-TV, TV, radio, phonographs and most anything else, famalies or just couples, would sit around the hearth or the stove. The women, whose work is never done, would be busy knitting, mending, whatever and someone else, often the male of the house, would read to everyone. This forms the basis for a scene in Great Expectations and, indeed, one of the letters to the police excerpted in Jack the Ripper: Scotland Yard Investigates is from a woman in the Midlands who got her "clue" to pass on from her husband who was reading to her about Jack in front of the fire of an evening.

It really says nothing either way about Mary's literacy but instead seems a brief vignette of Joe and Mary as a happy couple.

Don.

[Chava]

Thanks guys!

But somehow I don't see Mary Jane happily darning the socks by the fire while her man read her all the news...

[Supe]

Chava,

But somehow I don't see Mary Jane happily darning the socks by the fire while her man read her all the news...

Maybe you need to stop looking at Mary in light of her victimhood and acknowledge that she (and everyone else) had real lives--prosaic, often dull and occasionally desperate--that predate November 9.

Don.

[Chava]

Don, I think she did have an 'ordinary' life, or at least a life that was ordinary by the standards of the time and area in which she lived. But she was known in the district as a drunk, and she'd lived with (at least) 3 men in 2 years. I'm not trying to take her life away from her, but she sounds to me like a woman who would rather spend time in the pub than before her own fireside. Believe me, I hope she did have a few moments of private peace.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Chava!

At least she did in that sense, that she had kicked Joe out!

No, seriously;

Maria Harvey, a friend, says that she was "much superior to that of most persons in her position in life."

Joseph Barnett says that he "always found her of sober habits."

Landlord John McCarthy says "When in liquor she was very noisy; otherwise she was a very quiet woman."

Caroline Maxwell says that she "was not a notorious character."

Catherine Pickett claims "She was a good, quiet, pleasant girl, and was well liked by all of us."

These are from the victims introduction of this Casebook website.

So, it seems, that she had her peaceful moments in the East End sometimes!

All the best
Jukka

[Supe]

Chava,

I don'y mean to single you out, but it is this kind of reasong that makes for the rancor we endured on another thread. The few reported snippets of Mary Kelly's life are not enough, just as they are not for anyone else. Just as we cannot reconstruct a single night on a few reported happenings neither can we conjure much of an idea of people's lives from what we have. A half-dozen random daubs on a canvas do not a portrait make.

It may be that Mary did inordinately enjoy the pub scene, but not even Paris Hilton parties non-stop--and she can afford to. Kelly and Barnett were together fot 18 months, which wasn't a bad run, and even if Barnett was a most gullible "butter and egg man" and Mary the most grasping of paramours, it denies human nature to think that they didn't have their moments before a fire, Mary doing something domestic and Joe reading the paper. Especially when this was the norm for folks who wouldn't or couldn't gp out of a night.

In that regard, I have always said thank goodness for Albert Cadoche. If it weren't for his racing--twice--to the loo we might well believe from the "evidence" that those involved with the Ripper saga had no bodily functions about which to worry.

A newspaper story here or bit of gossip there do not come close to telling the story, xomething we all need to bear in mind as we sift what facts we have.

Don.

[Graham]

Has anyone considered that she may have had impaired vision and couldn't afford a pair of specs?

Graham

[Suzi]

That's why she kept Joe!

I'm sure that whoever we know as MJK was somewhat 'superior' to her peers in and around Spitalfields- whether this came from within herself or from some form of education -we'll never know-mainly because we don't- and more than likely wont ever know- who she was!
The names/history will never convince me totally- unless persuaded (convincingly) otherwise!

I suggest that Mc Carthy's lodger at No 13 was a bright creature who made her way as and when she could-Now the tantalising question as to whether she was a relation or whatever is for another thread but she seemed to 'convince' John Mc C in some way or another-and Joe!

[John Bennett]

Just a thought,

I used to have a girlfriend who was university educated (Oxford), was good in her field (education), yet used to like me to read stuff to her (newspaper reports, bits of articles, e-mails, anything). Not for any other reason than she liked being 'read to'.

Maybe we're looking at a similar thing with Mary Kelly?

I'm not saying she was Oxbridge or anything, but you get my drift....

[Supe]

John and everyone,

Why is it so difficult to accept what was a way of life for almost everyone back then and instead try to come up with reasons why Joe was reading to Mary? Is it really that difficult to realize that everything Joe and Mary did before November 9, 1888, have to be abnormal, unnatural or somehow linked to the murder?

Don.

[DVV]

David,

according to Barnett, she used to ask him to read the newspapers. Whether she couldn't read or didn't like to, we cannot say.

It was pointed out in a presentation at the Wolverhampton Conference that this was probably a rare glimpse into the domestic scene at No. 13. Before HD-TV, TV, radio, phonographs and most anything else, famalies or just couples, would sit around the hearth or the stove. The women, whose work is never done, would be busy knitting, mending, whatever and someone else, often the male of the house, would read to everyone. This forms the basis for a scene in Great Expectations and, indeed, one of the letters to the police excerpted in Jack the Ripper: Scotland Yard Investigates is from a woman in the Midlands who got her "clue" to pass on from her husband who was reading to her about Jack in front of the fire of an evening.

It really says nothing either way about Mary's literacy but instead seems a brief vignette of Joe and Mary as a happy couple.

Don.

Thanks Don,
and that's why I've pointed out that we can't infer from Barnett's statement whether MK could read or not.
I know that in the 19th century it was very common to read novels "à haute voix" , in order to entertain and instructyour family and guests...
Good ol'times...?

Amitiés,
David

[Chava]

Is it really that difficult to realize that everything Joe and Mary did before November 9, 1888, have to be abnormal, unnatural or somehow linked to the murder?

OK, but I'm not sure what the point is, here. Kelly had a life, and so did all the others. It just seems that she spent quite a bit of it drinking. Everyone asked about her said she was a lovely, lovely woman...except when she was in drink. Or that she liked a drink but wasn't a notorious character. And so on. No doubt she had good times and bad times with Barnett, I don't think anyone is suggesting she didn't. I'm certainly not suggesting that her penchant for liquor in the years before she died linked up with her murder. We don't know much about her beyond what was remarkable, and what was remarkable is what stayed with people and that was what they talked about. It's certainly possible that she sat by the fire and listened to Barnett read to her. However, if that did happen, it's a shame that they didn't have at least one decent and comfortable chair to relax in. There were two chairs in that room, and both of them were of the upright, unforgiving, hard wood variety. I think, if sitting beside the fire was something they enjoyed doing, they would have organized an old armchair or whatever.

That having been said, I never think about Kelly sitting by the fire, when I think of the weeks before the murder. For some reason I always think of her outdoors in the sunshine sitting on one of those chairs outside on the street with all the others. There are loads of photographs showing the women sitting on hard chairs on the pavement while the kids play in the street. The other poor victims didn't even have the ability to do that. You don't get to keep your own chair in a doss-house. But Kelly, at least, had a roof over her head and some kind of a permanent address.