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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #431  
Old 07-21-2017, 02:23 AM
GUT GUT is offline
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He probably would have walked. Police didn,t have any evidence against him. He could have had alibis, denied the letters and the knife and graffito. The top doctors called to testify had contrary beliefs on his method of mutilation. Other than the case of Elizabeth Stride, no constable reported seeing a man with the woman murdered. And, the prosecutions top witnesses - Packer, Hutchinson, Schwartz, Lawende, Mrs.Maxwell, Mrs. Long - would disagree on his identity (similar to the witnesses charging Dr. Hessell in the Coram Street mystery).
Surely Mrs Maxwell would be a defence witness not a prosecution witness.
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  #432  
Old 07-21-2017, 04:26 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Not sure why you quoted my post, if only as an excuse to repeat your multi-killer rhetoric.

But what the heck, I'll play.

The canonical victim list is not set in stone. The police at the time did not agree on the exact victim tally. There were some who put the number at six, accepting Tabram into the canon. Then there's Alice McKenzie, who Dr. Bond attributed to the Ripper. At any rate, Michael, why do you think that this particular group of victims were linked? The other murders in the Whitechapel file were violent crimes but they were missing the Ripper's signature, that's why they generally aren't included. Usually it's the likes of Tabram & McKenzie that are on the fringes because of the mutilation. Personally, knowing what we do about serial killers, and with the possible exception of Emma Smith, I don't think we can rule out any of them.

What I don't really understand is the specious belief that the murders must be identical to constitute a series. I guess it's the same kind of psychology adopted by conspiracy theorists. They think that by eschewing the status quo it grants them some kind of intellectual superiority, even when facts and reason aren't on their side.

Serial killer Richard Ramirez murdered both men & women of various ages, sometimes using strangulation, sometimes a gun, sometimes throat-slashing. Some were raped, some weren't. Then you have someone like Bundy who murdered young caucasian brunettes with parted hair. One has a diverse victimology, one doesn't. Some killers mix up their methodology, some don't. My point being that although criminal profiling can provide a blueprint for an investigation, it's not an exact science. However, in the Ripper's case, you have at least four victims all killed in the same neighbourhood, all with the same MO and post-mortem mutilation. You focus on discrepancies in skill level and escalation in violence as evidence of multiple-killers. Nevermind that the statistical improbability of there being more than one individual willing and able of murdering women in dangerous locales and taking their innards. With several of these madmen on the loose at the same time, the reign of terror was over by Christmas.
Hi Harry
Good post and I agree with everything you say. Except that it was over by xmas.
McKenzie was a ripper victim. I have it as a c7. Tab ram through McKenzie.

The mo and SIG is the same-as is the victimolgy, location and time.the similarities far out way the differences. I include tab ram and McKenzie because both include postmortem mutilation and focus on the abdomen. The clincher for me in both cases is the are found with the skirt hiked up to expose the private parts and abdomen, like the rest, showing a pre occupation with that area.

While the ripper probably attacked other women, mill wood being an early botched attempt, he more than likely IMHO, killed seven.
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  #433  
Old 07-21-2017, 08:33 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Surely Mrs Maxwell would be a defence witness not a prosecution witness.
G'day G U T

That's an interesting point; hopefully you'll elaborate. My presumption on your post is that the prosecution would have to decide on who to call - Hutchinson or Mrs. Maxwell (if discrepancies in their identification were risen); so the defense would select the other to cast suspicion on Mary Jane's ToD.
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  #434  
Old 07-21-2017, 11:14 AM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Hi Robert.

If someone was charged with Kelly's murder at 2-3:00 am, then Maxwell could be called by the defense in support of a death after 9:00 am., implying a different assailant. Assuming the accused had an alibi for the later time.
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  #435  
Old 07-21-2017, 11:52 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Why are we talking about Kelly, Maxwell and Hutchinson on an "apron" thread?
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  #436  
Old 07-21-2017, 12:17 PM
Herlock Sholmes Herlock Sholmes is offline
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Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Harry
Good post and I agree with everything you say. Except that it was over by xmas.
McKenzie was a ripper victim. I have it as a c7. Tab ram through McKenzie.

The mo and SIG is the same-as is the victimolgy, location and time.the similarities far out way the differences. I include tab ram and McKenzie because both include postmortem mutilation and focus on the abdomen. The clincher for me in both cases is the are found with the skirt hiked up to expose the private parts and abdomen, like the rest, showing a pre occupation with that area.

While the ripper probably attacked other women, mill wood being an early botched attempt, he more than likely IMHO, killed seven.
Hi Abby,

I've been meaning to get other opinions on Coles and as you include McKenzie you've given me the opportunity. I'm unsure on the amount of victims but have always thought that perhaps we are a little too overconfident on the c5? MO's can surely change slightly due to circumstances? I think that I'm right in saying that most accept Stride as a victim and explain the lack of mutilation by the killer being interrupted by Diemschutz. Why not the same for Coles? If I remember correctly didn't PC Thompson hear someone running away as he discovered the body? Couldn't the killer have also been disturbed by hearing Thompson's regulation tread before carrying out any mutilations?

I'm undecided. I think that we have to consider McKenzie as at least a possible victim of Jack. Why not Coles?

Saying all of the above, I accept that it's off topic. Perhaps I should have started another thread but I just wanted a few opinions.

Regards
Herlock
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  #437  
Old 07-21-2017, 12:31 PM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Why not the same for Coles? If I remember correctly didn't PC Thompson hear someone running away as he discovered the body? Couldn't the killer have also been disturbed by hearing Thompson's regulation tread before carrying out any mutilations?

I'm undecided. I think that we have to consider McKenzie as at least a possible victim of Jack. Why not Coles?

Saying all of the above, I accept that it's off topic. Perhaps I should have started another thread but I just wanted a few opinions.
Hey Herlock,

PC Thompson heard footsteps walking away shortly before he discovered Coles. Thompson was quoted as saying, "I nearly had him. He was only an arm’s length away, and I missed him" but this was written after his death and it's unknown if it was apocryphal statement. Either way, it's not what Thompson stated in his police report.

Had Coles been killed on 30th Sept 1888 instead of Stride, she probably would've been included as a Ripper victim, but of course based on the killer's movements on the double event, Eddowes might have been spared that night.
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  #438  
Old 07-21-2017, 12:32 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Why are we talking about Kelly, Maxwell and Hutchinson on an "apron" thread?
because i didnt feel like talking about Lechmere or starting a new thread.
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  #439  
Old 07-21-2017, 01:00 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
Hi Abby,

I've been meaning to get other opinions on Coles and as you include McKenzie you've given me the opportunity. I'm unsure on the amount of victims but have always thought that perhaps we are a little too overconfident on the c5? MO's can surely change slightly due to circumstances? I think that I'm right in saying that most accept Stride as a victim and explain the lack of mutilation by the killer being interrupted by Diemschutz. Why not the same for Coles? If I remember correctly didn't PC Thompson hear someone running away as he discovered the body? Couldn't the killer have also been disturbed by hearing Thompson's regulation tread before carrying out any mutilations?

I'm undecided. I think that we have to consider McKenzie as at least a possible victim of Jack. Why not Coles?

Saying all of the above, I accept that it's off topic. Perhaps I should have started another thread but I just wanted a few opinions.

Regards
Herlock
I see coles as a possibility but only slightly. too much time has passed, no cuts to the abdomen, and it was probably still sadler IMHO.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #440  
Old 07-21-2017, 02:24 PM
John G John G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abby Normal View Post
Hi Harry
Good post and I agree with everything you say. Except that it was over by xmas.
McKenzie was a ripper victim. I have it as a c7. Tab ram through McKenzie.

The mo and SIG is the same-as is the victimolgy, location and time.the similarities far out way the differences. I include tab ram and McKenzie because both include postmortem mutilation and focus on the abdomen. The clincher for me in both cases is the are found with the skirt hiked up to expose the private parts and abdomen, like the rest, showing a pre occupation with that area.

While the ripper probably attacked other women, mill wood being an early botched attempt, he more than likely IMHO, killed seven.
Hi Abby,

I agree that Tabram was probably a JtR victim. McKenzie's a real enigma. The abdominal wounds were relatively superficial, however, the blood evidence strongly suggests that the killer was disturbed. In fact, PC Andrews must have arrived on the scene very soon after she was killed-so much so that it's been suggested that he was either the murderer himself, or at the very least he must have seen who the murderer was.
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