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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #421  
Old 07-19-2017, 06:08 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Originally Posted by Harry D View Post
I sway back and forth on the GSG. Currently, I'd say I'm 80/20 to the Ripper NOT writing the graffito. This was a killer who had hitherto not been the type to leave messages behind, but all of a sudden after one of his riskiest kills, he stops in a doorway and leaves some vague scrawl behind? It doesn't make sense to me. He had all the time in the world to leave a message in Miller's Court and (unless you're looking for an initial here or an initial there ) neglected to do so. I've heard the counterargument that he had a particular axe to grind with the Jews that night and simply had to get it off his chest. And that's the best he could come up with!?
I, like cd, enjoy your posts Harry, but the presumptive manner in which you connect dots is not my cup of tea. You, like so many others, use a "series" of murders as your starting point and then create storylines that allow those disparate events to somehow connect, even if only tangentially.

This particular night being discussed is the most obvious example of what Im talking about, a woman has a single cut across her throat and because another slit throat that night is accompanied by what EVERYONE should be looking for...pm mutilations...suddenly its a Double Event. Never mind the remarkable restraint a serial mutilator shows us with Liz Stride, nor the fact that she is virtually left untouched after the throat slit, nor the fact that it happens on property operated by what the police referred to as anarchists...(something which is essentially proven by the main characters at the club the following spring), nor that the stories given by some of the members of the club do not match each others at all, nor that a double throat cutter suddenly cuts just once....I suppose the argument is what are the chances of 2 unrelated throat cuts in one night? Or three...which there were on the so called Double Event night.

The fact that the Unsolved Murder file contains 13 murders of which only 5 were presumed to have been connected by one killer is monumental proof positive that more than one man killed unfortunates during the period in question. Unless of course we presume one man did all 13....Im sure that will prompt some imaginative responses.

Until many of you fine folks come to the realization that there is NO evidence at all known to any man or woman alive that connects this Canonical Group by one killer. Unless of course someone possesses this incredible proof and chooses not to share it with the world. And thats likely, huh?

The apron represents material evidence from one of three throat slittings that night, and it, according to PC Long, did not appear until 40-70 minutes after the Mitre Square murder. That suggests 2 things...1, that the killer left the street for a period of time, one might presume...as many good folks here do as a habitual practice...to get rid of his "take". And that suggests, for point 2, that the apron was tucked safely indoors with the killer during that time.

So, why does he bring it back outdoors at all? Why risk being caught with it? Why go back out at all, hes had his playtime...

These points lead to a scenario that includes a purposefully taken back on the street and purposefully placed artifact. That, when juxtaposed with the writing almost directly above it, makes this a communication by Kates killer.

The only woman killed that night whose murder resembles the murders that spawned this phantom menace speculation.
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  #422  
Old 07-19-2017, 06:35 PM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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a bloody knife should have left bloodmarks along the cut of the ,clean, side of the apron; i dont remember any reported, but my memory is what it is. Suggesting this act happened before the mutilations; and also suggesting that he had a purpose for the apron ie. cleaning his knife or used to remove her intestines,&c.

this ones tricky bc it debatable. i dont remember any of her pocket items being printed with blood minus the handkerchiefs. Suggesting that this act happened before the he bloodied his hands.

in this case It suggests incapacitation or strangulation prior to any mutilations
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  #423  
Old 07-19-2017, 07:01 PM
Wickerman Wickerman is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
So, why does he bring it back outdoors at all? Why risk being caught with it? Why go back out at all, hes had his playtime...
A variety of books on serial killers explain why they do risky things, its all part of the thrill, the challenge, they are (in their own minds) invincible. They don't skulk around in the shadows, that's for sane people who appreciate the risks.
He might even walk up to a constable and ask what all the fuss is about tonight, while carrying that folded up apron under his coat.

They are not stupid enough to linger at a crime scene. But they are superior enough to know that when they are away from the scene they can taunt authorities by lingering among the innocent, right in front of police.
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  #424  
Old 07-20-2017, 02:31 AM
Harry D Harry D is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
I, like cd, enjoy your posts Harry, but the presumptive manner in which you connect dots is not my cup of tea. You, like so many others, use a "series" of murders as your starting point and then create storylines that allow those disparate events to somehow connect, even if only tangentially.

This particular night being discussed is the most obvious example of what Im talking about, a woman has a single cut across her throat and because another slit throat that night is accompanied by what EVERYONE should be looking for...pm mutilations...suddenly its a Double Event. Never mind the remarkable restraint a serial mutilator shows us with Liz Stride, nor the fact that she is virtually left untouched after the throat slit, nor the fact that it happens on property operated by what the police referred to as anarchists...(something which is essentially proven by the main characters at the club the following spring), nor that the stories given by some of the members of the club do not match each others at all, nor that a double throat cutter suddenly cuts just once....I suppose the argument is what are the chances of 2 unrelated throat cuts in one night? Or three...which there were on the so called Double Event night.

The fact that the Unsolved Murder file contains 13 murders of which only 5 were presumed to have been connected by one killer is monumental proof positive that more than one man killed unfortunates during the period in question. Unless of course we presume one man did all 13....Im sure that will prompt some imaginative responses.

Until many of you fine folks come to the realization that there is NO evidence at all known to any man or woman alive that connects this Canonical Group by one killer. Unless of course someone possesses this incredible proof and chooses not to share it with the world. And thats likely, huh?

The apron represents material evidence from one of three throat slittings that night, and it, according to PC Long, did not appear until 40-70 minutes after the Mitre Square murder. That suggests 2 things...1, that the killer left the street for a period of time, one might presume...as many good folks here do as a habitual practice...to get rid of his "take". And that suggests, for point 2, that the apron was tucked safely indoors with the killer during that time.

So, why does he bring it back outdoors at all? Why risk being caught with it? Why go back out at all, hes had his playtime...

These points lead to a scenario that includes a purposefully taken back on the street and purposefully placed artifact. That, when juxtaposed with the writing almost directly above it, makes this a communication by Kates killer.

The only woman killed that night whose murder resembles the murders that spawned this phantom menace speculation.
Not sure why you quoted my post, if only as an excuse to repeat your multi-killer rhetoric.

But what the heck, I'll play.

The canonical victim list is not set in stone. The police at the time did not agree on the exact victim tally. There were some who put the number at six, accepting Tabram into the canon. Then there's Alice McKenzie, who Dr. Bond attributed to the Ripper. At any rate, Michael, why do you think that this particular group of victims were linked? The other murders in the Whitechapel file were violent crimes but they were missing the Ripper's signature, that's why they generally aren't included. Usually it's the likes of Tabram & McKenzie that are on the fringes because of the mutilation. Personally, knowing what we do about serial killers, and with the possible exception of Emma Smith, I don't think we can rule out any of them.

What I don't really understand is the specious belief that the murders must be identical to constitute a series. I guess it's the same kind of psychology adopted by conspiracy theorists. They think that by eschewing the status quo it grants them some kind of intellectual superiority, even when facts and reason aren't on their side.

Serial killer Richard Ramirez murdered both men & women of various ages, sometimes using strangulation, sometimes a gun, sometimes throat-slashing. Some were raped, some weren't. Then you have someone like Bundy who murdered young caucasian brunettes with parted hair. One has a diverse victimology, one doesn't. Some killers mix up their methodology, some don't. My point being that although criminal profiling can provide a blueprint for an investigation, it's not an exact science. However, in the Ripper's case, you have at least four victims all killed in the same neighbourhood, all with the same MO and post-mortem mutilation. You focus on discrepancies in skill level and escalation in violence as evidence of multiple-killers. Nevermind that the statistical improbability of there being more than one individual willing and able of murdering women in dangerous locales and taking their innards. With several of these madmen on the loose at the same time, the reign of terror was over by Christmas.
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  #425  
Old 07-20-2017, 02:28 PM
Varqm Varqm is offline
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I believe the ripper was cautious (even possible he partly got lost),passing the Wentworth doorway at past 2:20 AM,dropped the apron and went home.After having reached
Goulston safely,the foremost task was to go further away from the murder site as fast as possible.
The only thing going for the ripper having wrote the graffito was why did not anybody own up to it,it was in the press.The writer did not have to have his/her name public.

Last edited by Varqm : 07-20-2017 at 02:46 PM.
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  #426  
Old 07-20-2017, 02:52 PM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
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Sorry if you dont feel you should be taking the heat for what I believe is a ridiculous premise....The Canonical Group...but you do espouse much of the presumptive bs that reveals just how little people are willing to found their ideas upon:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry D View Post

1. The other murders in the Whitechapel file were violent crimes but they were missing the Ripper's signature, that's why they generally aren't included.

Far be it from me to be the one to define this signature you mention, but for a layman like myself the highly unusual double throat cuts and the post mortem mutilations would be signatures. Very rare actions, and obviously based on Polly and Annies murders, high on the killers list. So right away we can release Ms Tabram, Ms Stride and a few others with the rest of the Unsolved File, let them rest in peace finally.

2. Usually it's the likes of Tabram & McKenzie that are on the fringes because of the mutilation.

I would say that Kate is "on the fringe" when it comes to the killer who killed Polly and Annie, who I believe is almost certainly the same 1 man. Multiple stabbings arent that rare, and Alice would be on that list, I agree with that.

3. Personally, knowing what we do about serial killers, and with the possible exception of Emma Smith, I don't think we can rule out any of them.

That data you speak of is based on interviews and research done on people who have been arrested and tried for their crimes, and hard evidence accompanied their admissions of guilt. You dont know that any 2 of the Unsolved murders were committed by one man, let alone 5 or more, yet you defer to data that was gleaned from known, proven, and interviewed serial killers.

4.You focus on discrepancies in skill level and escalation in violence as evidence of multiple-killers. Nevermind that the statistical improbability of there being more than one individual willing and able of murdering women in dangerous locales and taking their innards.

Lets see...who had innards taken? Annie, Kate, Mary....and how long did you want Jacks list to be based on using that data?
Its farcical that people start off with a conclusion and imagine a story that allows for it to be possible, instead of looking at individual crimes and the wide range of differing activities and circumstances, to say nothing of the physical evidence. Like watching the last 5 minutes of a movie then imagining what the movie was about and what the characters actually did.
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  #427  
Old 07-20-2017, 03:42 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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"Never mind the remarkable restraint a serial mutilator shows us with Liz Stride, nor the fact that she is virtually left untouched after the throat slit...."

Hello Michael,

You do realize that if the Ripper were to be caught he would most likely be hanged do you not? How do you know what conditions existed right after Liz was killed? You assume that Jack was free to do whatever he wanted but how do you know that he was not interrupted or scared off by something? What you choose to call "remarkable restraint" could simply be paranoia and a desire not to have his neck in a noose.

c.d.
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  #428  
Old 07-20-2017, 04:07 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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"Lets see...who had innards taken? Annie, Kate, Mary....and how long did you want Jacks list to be based on using that data?"

Hello Michael,

Seeing as how Polly was a prostitute and a Whitechapel resident and seeing as how her throat was cut and an incision made into her abdomen I would think it reasonable to include her with the others you list. That is unless you want to postulate two killers roaming Whitechapel at that time. One killer who ripped open abdomens and took out internal organs and one killer for whom simply ripping open the abdomen of his victim sufficed.

c.d.
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  #429  
Old 07-20-2017, 06:19 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman View Post
A variety of books on serial killers explain why they do risky things, its all part of the thrill, the challenge, they are (in their own minds) invincible. They don't skulk around in the shadows, that's for sane people who appreciate the risks.
He might even walk up to a constable and ask what all the fuss is about tonight, while carrying that folded up apron under his coat.

They are not stupid enough to linger at a crime scene. But they are superior enough to know that when they are away from the scene they can taunt authorities by lingering among the innocent, right in front of police.

Bingo wick. Good post.
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  #430  
Old 07-21-2017, 02:20 AM
Robert St Devil Robert St Devil is offline
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Originally Posted by c.d. View Post

You do realize that if the Ripper were to be caught he would most likely be hanged do you not?
He probably would have walked. Police didn,t have any evidence against him. He could have had alibis, denied the letters and the knife and graffito. The top doctors called to testify had contrary beliefs on his method of mutilation. Other than the case of Elizabeth Stride, no constable reported seeing a man with the woman murdered. And, the prosecutions top witnesses - Packer, Hutchinson, Schwartz, Lawende, Mrs.Maxwell, Mrs. Long - would disagree on his identity (similar to the witnesses charging Dr. Hessell in the Coram Street mystery).
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