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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Suspects > Klosowski, Severin (George Chapman)

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  #21  
Old 06-20-2011, 08:33 PM
Adam Went Adam Went is offline
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And how many pies you were carrying at the time, Chris!?

Cheers,
Adam.
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  #22  
Old 06-20-2011, 10:14 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natalie Severn View Post
Hi Abby,
In the Post Office Directory of 1889 he is down as being there in a barber shop of which he is the proprietor---he would have had a rental lease.In order to be entered in the Post Office Directory for the year 1889 he would have had to have been living in Cable Street [number 123 I think] at the time before.at latest 14 December 1888-though strictly speaking before 2nd December 1888.So he was running a barber shop there some time in the Autumn or early winter of 1888.He was also living there with his wife Lucy Baderski from the end of October 1889 when they married until some time in 1890.
Chris is right, Fleet Street and the barber shop of Sweeney Todd are about a mile and a half away--don't forget the City of London is a square mile and the EastEnd borders it,but Fleet Street is quite long and the barber shop of the demon barber was at the far end by the old church which still has the two statues of little men in the bell tower banging on its bells every hour.I think that church was old even then---two hundred years ago!!!! The pie shop vanished long ago along with the barber shop.One or two very old shops still stand but on the other side.
Thanks!
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quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

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  #23  
Old 06-23-2011, 06:05 PM
HelenaWojtczak HelenaWojtczak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Went View Post
Abby:
Some of the witness did describe a man of foreign appearance - they probably didn't hear enough of his voice at any time to be able to judge his accent, but there certainly should have been one, given that he spent his childhood and teen years in Poland and only came to England around 1887. Plus of course it's fraught with danger to try and decipher just what each witness meant by "foreign appearance".
Adam, I have an idea that might help. The East End at that time was home to thousands of eastern European Jews. Jews have certain physical racial characteristics, and so might appear to "look foreign" to the English. Klosowski was not Jewish, and so would have looked like any other native European.

(I ref. my own case - my mother married twice, both times to Poles. My father was Polish but not Jewish. My half-siblings father was Polish-Jewish. My siblings all look Jewish, but I don't.)
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  #24  
Old 06-23-2011, 06:22 PM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HelenaWojtczak View Post
Adam, I have an idea that might help. The East End at that time was home to thousands of eastern European Jews. Jews have certain physical racial characteristics, and so might appear to "look foreign" to the English. Klosowski was not Jewish, and so would have looked like any other native European.

(I ref. my own case - my mother married twice, both times to Poles. My father was Polish but not Jewish. My half-siblings father was Polish-Jewish. My siblings all look Jewish, but I don't.)
Hi Helena

Natalie could probably confirm this but I think it is also true to say that Klosowski, although a Gentile, sometimes posed as a Jew.

Chris
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  #25  
Old 06-23-2011, 06:26 PM
GregBaron GregBaron is offline
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Default Jews unrecognizable...

Hi all,

I think when we talk Jewish looking we tread on very shaky ground. As pointed out by other posters, some of whom are Jewish, to ascribe a look to a Jew can be problematic. Barring the classic Semitic hook nose or the orthodox black outfits with the curlycue sideburns, I don't think we can accurately say someone looks Jewish....now Eastern European Jews may be more likely to have dark hair and eyes than perhaps a ginger headed Irishman but beyond that I don't think we can assert much. When I look at photos of the era it appears to me Jews pretty much wore the outfits everyone else was wearing probably in an attempt to assimilate. My best guess on the foreign claiming witnesses is that the accent is the giveaway followed by perhaps a slightly darker appearance...............

Greg
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  #26  
Old 06-23-2011, 08:17 PM
HelenaWojtczak HelenaWojtczak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
Hi Helena

Natalie could probably confirm this but I think it is also true to say that Klosowski, although a Gentile, sometimes posed as a Jew.

Chris
Indeed, but that would not make eyewitnesses getting a glimpse in the dark from a distance think he looked like one.

Greg, not saying all Jewish people have all the characteristics. Saying that a lot of Poles are apple-cheeked blondes, and you didn't see many c19th Jews that looked like that! My half-sister dyes her hair blonde, but still has a very noticeable Jewish look about her, which she and her Jewish siblings remark on (when they aren't busy remarking on their own Jewish looks!) I only wish I could post pics to illustrate my point.

I've wandered around a few concentration camp museums in Poland, and the facial differences between the Jewish and the German visitors were very clear, even though the former were not wearing curlicue sideburns.

Last edited by HelenaWojtczak : 06-23-2011 at 08:25 PM.
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  #27  
Old 06-23-2011, 09:02 PM
GregBaron GregBaron is offline
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Default Photos....

Hi HelenaWojtczak,

I posted a link a while back with photos of Victorian Jews........perhaps you can find it and illustrate your points.......I think it was on a Kozminski thread.......if nothing else some very interesting photos I think.....when I get a moment I'll see if I can find it as well....



Greg
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  #28  
Old 06-23-2011, 09:13 PM
ChrisGeorge ChrisGeorge is offline
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Hi all

It's also true to say that a number of Jews hid the fact that they were Jewish by turning Christian, because of the discriminations to which the Jews were subject over the centuries. So it could well be that some of the "Christian" Poles who looked Jewish had that aspect because they did have Jewish blood.

Chris
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  #29  
Old 06-23-2011, 09:46 PM
Natalie Severn Natalie Severn is offline
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Default from the trial of George Chapman in 1903.

Evidence for the Prosecution.
Wolff Levisoiin, examined—I live at 135 Rosslyn Road, South Tottenham, and am a traveller in hairdressers7 appliances. I have known the accused since 1888, when I met him in a hairdresser's shop in Whitechapel. I spoke to him in Yiddish. He said he came from Warsaw. I knew him as Ludwig Zagowski. We met from time to time up to 1890. He told me that in Warsaw he had been practising in the medical line as a u feldscher " at the Praga Hospital. I have been a " feldscher " myself. I had seven years' training in the Russian Army. A " feldscher " is an assistant to a doctor. I talked to the accused about medicines, and he asked me if I could get him a certain medicine, but I said no, I did not want to get twelve years.
Hi All,
This extract from Chapman's trial may be of interest in the information it gives about 'George Chapman' by Wolff Levisohn who knew him in Warsaw.
He says he knew him[more or less continuously] from 1888 to 1890.
Best
Norma
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  #30  
Old 06-24-2011, 07:31 AM
Adam Went Adam Went is offline
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Hey all,

It is indeed fraught with danger to try and identify just what was meant by somebody of a foreign appearance, and it's a shame that in certain instances this wasn't elaborated on further.

Essentially it would be the same as me saying I saw somebody who had an Asian appearance - it's quite generic and there's many different variables that could come out of such a statement.

It's been said that in Victorian London, "foreigner" was pretty much a synonym for "Jew". In any case we are fortunate enough to have photographs of Klosowski in life, something of a rarity, so we can judge his appearance for ourselves rather than relying on generic, possibly even slightly racist descriptions.

Cheers,
Adam.
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