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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

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  #221  
Old 04-24-2017, 11:48 AM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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But if you are referring to her deposition, Prater is recorded as saying "I noticed the lodging house was out, so it was after 4 probably". That's not 3.45 is it?
but she said "probably"! ; )
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  #222  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:05 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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to me given that both women were asleep or recently asleep-ie perhaps groggy-and the ambiguousness of time keeping through hearing a clock chime-I would conclude that they probably heard the same scream, from the same woman around 4:00 am at the same location-at least from somewhere in the court.

and given that a women was in fact found murdered later in the morning in a room in the court I would say that in all probability it was mary Kelly who made the scream.

But... but that being said I recently saw a true crime docu in which a woman was found murdered in the woods near her apartment by gunshot-two neighbors heard gunshots in the middle of the night and the police used that as time of death and were convinced that she was shot at the time the neighbors heard it. turns out she was shot by a friend much later in the morning and the shots the neighbors heard had nothing to do with it.

so....you never know.
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"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
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  #223  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:06 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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but she said "probably"! ; )
Exactly! That's her evidence.

As far as I can tell, Michael reads it as the direct opposite, namely: probably not after 4am!!!
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  #224  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:36 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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As we know from many of your previous posts, my dear boy, you don't understand the difference between newspaper articles in general and newspaper reports of court proceedings. You never have understood it, you still don't understand it and I'm guessing you never will. But the fact of the matter, whether you like it or not, is that there was no sensationalism (i.e. fabrication) in reporting of court proceedings in the newspapers, nor was it even possible for there to be any, and, indeed, newspaper reports of court proceedings had their own special status in English law which recognised this. Ask a historian.
David,

What is your opinion on differences between newpaper reports from the Whitechapel murder inquests in 1888?

How do you explain different types of variations?

Pierre
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  #225  
Old 04-24-2017, 12:54 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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David,

What is your opinion on differences between newpaper reports from the Whitechapel murder inquests in 1888?

How do you explain different types of variations?
My dear boy, as usual I'm very happy to answer all your questions and on this occasion my answer to your question, which I see you have asked twice in two charmingly different ways, is this: poor acoustics, poor hearing, witnesses speaking very softly, witnesses mumbling or speaking otherwise incoherently, poorly written or illegible notes, miscommunication between reporter and editor etc.
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  #226  
Old 04-24-2017, 01:03 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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My dear boy, as usual I'm very happy to answer all your questions and on this occasion my answer to your question, which I see you have asked twice in two charmingly different ways, is this: poor acoustics, poor hearing, witnesses speaking very softly, witnesses mumbling or speaking otherwise incoherently, poorly written or illegible notes, miscommunication between reporter and editor etc.
David,

what evidence do you have for "miscommuniation between reporter and editor"?
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  #227  
Old 04-24-2017, 01:06 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
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David,

what evidence do you have for "miscommuniation between reporter and editor"?
I don't have evidence for any of those reasons my dear boy, they are all inferred, but what I was really thinking of there when I said "miscommunication between reporter and editor etc." was a reporter who telephones in his report to his editorial office and the person taking the report (be it editor, subeditor or clerk or whomsoever) mishears what the reporter says.
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  #228  
Old 04-24-2017, 02:26 PM
Pinkerton Pinkerton is offline
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Default Why the term "Murder!" was used

Quote:
I still find it weird that someone's response would be "Oh, murder!" in that situation. Not "Help!" or even a sudden scream but a literal cry of murder. It still could've come from MJK's room, but maybe the cause was Blotchy clumsily spilling some of his beer over her linens.
I think I can explain this. While reading through hundreds of newspaper accounts and court documents related to crime in the LVP I remember hearing witnesses during crimes during the period say that when someone needed help because they were being robbed, assaulted, etc. they would often yell "Murder!" because it was the surest way to get help to come. "Help!", "I'm being robbed!", "Police!", etc. were often thought to be ineffective. You will find many crimes where a victim yells out "Murder!" even when they are NOT being "murdered". I came across this numerous times when reading through criminal reports. So I believe it became "folk wisdom" for a person during this period (at least in London) who needed assistance to automatically yell out "Murder!" to get bystanders or police to render assistance regardless of the actual reason they needed help.
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  #229  
Old 04-24-2017, 03:18 PM
Abby Normal Abby Normal is offline
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Originally Posted by Pinkerton View Post
I think I can explain this. While reading through hundreds of newspaper accounts and court documents related to crime in the LVP I remember hearing witnesses during crimes during the period say that when someone needed help because they were being robbed, assaulted, etc. they would often yell "Murder!" because it was the surest way to get help to come. "Help!", "I'm being robbed!", "Police!", etc. were often thought to be ineffective. You will find many crimes where a victim yells out "Murder!" even when they are NOT being "murdered". I came across this numerous times when reading through criminal reports. So I believe it became "folk wisdom" for a person during this period (at least in London) who needed assistance to automatically yell out "Murder!" to get bystanders or police to render assistance regardless of the actual reason they needed help.
And maybe because they're being murdered? ; )
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-Edgar Allan Poe


"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

-Frederick G. Abberline
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  #230  
Old 04-25-2017, 11:49 AM
Pierre Pierre is offline
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[quote=David Orsam;412932]

Quote:
I don't have evidence for any of those reasons my dear boy, they are all inferred,
David,

that seems very strange. If you infer, you must have something to infer from. Do you infer from imagination - and if you do - how come you draw your specific conclusions?

Quote:
but what I was really thinking of there when I said "miscommunication between reporter and editor etc." was a reporter who telephones in his report to his editorial office and the person taking the report (be it editor, subeditor or clerk or whomsoever) mishears what the reporter says.
That may be an hypothesis. Have you any source for this type of event at all?

Pierre
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