Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by RockySullivan 2 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by jerryd 3 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by jerryd 4 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Abby Normal 4 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Trevor Marriott 4 hours ago.
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - by Abby Normal 5 hours ago.

Most Popular Threads:
Motive, Method and Madness: Same motive = same killer - (66 posts)
Non-Fiction: Scholes of the Yard: The Casebook of a Scotland Yard Detective 1888 to 1924 - (1 posts)
Martha Tabram: Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim - (1 posts)
Scene of the Crimes: Bucks Row Project - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #201  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:06 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
The reason for the higher position of the inquest source is not per se that it is an original.

The reason is that reporters and editors had their own interests when writing about the case. They sold newspapers so they had very clear commercial interests.

The inquest papers where not sold on a market and therefore were not connencted to any commercial interests.
Yes my dear boy, you have trapped me there with your razor-like intellectual skills. For the newspapers surely sold thousands more copies by falsely reporting minor details of an inquest's proceedings. And the genius of it is that no-one could possibly ever have known what they were up to.
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #202  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:09 PM
Pierre Pierre is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 4,407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Yes my dear boy, you have trapped me there with your razor-like intellectual skills. For the newspapers surely sold thousands more copies by falsely reporting minor details of an inquest's proceedings. And the genius of it is that no-one could possibly ever have known what they were up to.
Well, sorry. But that is a problem. We simply do not know what was left out, what was misinterpreted, what was emphasized and what was speculations. You can compare articles and find both differences and similarities but journalists and editors knew each other and competed on the same market. Ask Fisherman.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #203  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:19 PM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,051
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Well, sorry. But that is a problem. We simply do not know what was left out, what was misinterpreted, what was emphasized and what was speculations. You can compare articles and find both differences and similarities but journalists and editors knew each other and competed on the same market. Ask Fisherman.
Are you suggesting that newspapers speculated as to what was said at inquests, rather than report the proceedings verbatim? What's your evidence for this?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #204  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:22 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
Well, sorry. But that is a problem. We simply do not know what was left out, what was misinterpreted, what was emphasized and what was speculations. You can compare articles and find both differences and similarities but journalists and editors knew each other and competed on the same market. Ask Fisherman.
As we know from many of your previous posts, my dear boy, you don't understand the difference between newspaper articles in general and newspaper reports of court proceedings. You never have understood it, you still don't understand it and I'm guessing you never will. But the fact of the matter, whether you like it or not, is that there was no sensationalism (i.e. fabrication) in reporting of court proceedings in the newspapers, nor was it even possible for there to be any, and, indeed, newspaper reports of court proceedings had their own special status in English law which recognised this. Ask a historian.
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #205  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:37 PM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,051
Default

I'm not sure if I'm imagining this but when I was studying law as an undergraduate, admittedly some time ago now, I seem to remember a tutor mentioning that The Times Law Reports had to be approved by the judge. Is this correct?
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #206  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:44 PM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by John G View Post
I'm not sure if I'm imagining this but when I was studying law as an undergraduate, admittedly some time ago now, I seem to remember a tutor mentioning that The Times Law Reports had to be approved by the judge. Is this correct?
You're thinking about judgments here John (i.e. in civil proceedings) not reports of the proceedings.
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #207  
Old 04-23-2017, 12:49 PM
John G John G is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,051
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
You're thinking about judgments here John (i.e. in civil proceedings) not reports of the proceedings.
Of course! Thanks David, an obvious mistake. I must be getting tired, but hopefully not "tired and emotional" in the George Brown sense.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #208  
Old 04-23-2017, 03:54 PM
GUT GUT is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: I come from a land Down Under
Posts: 7,130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Orsam View Post
Oh my dear boy, I mistyped at the end there, I meant self-confessed academic historian. Do forgive me.
A claim for which we are yet to see a shred of evidence, be it in the form of a deposition or a news report.
__________________
G U T

There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #209  
Old 04-24-2017, 03:45 AM
Michael W Richards Michael W Richards is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,063
Default

"As if at my door"..was what Sarah said. Which indicates the cry emanated from the courtyard somewhere. Very near to her. That's almost exactly what Elizabeth said. Both had the same approximate time. Added to that something just before the cry stirred Elizabeths cat, indicating that whatever the sound was it came from somewhere close. No further noise was heard.

A scenario that has a hungover sleeping Kelly padding to her door to answer what was likely a tap or knock on the door or window...cue Diddles...and being audibly dismayed at having to do so is entirely consistent with the evidence provided by the 2 aforementioned witnesses. Simple..just like I said before David.

It is in sync with the witnesses, it would explain how the killer got into the room, it would also address the likelihood that Mary knew the person well enough to allow them access at almost 4am. Which in turn explains why no further sounds, voice or the like, were needed. Which is why the women heard nothing further, though it can be safely assumed both were listening for such sounds.
__________________
Michael Richards
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #210  
Old 04-24-2017, 09:43 AM
David Orsam David Orsam is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 6,915
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael W Richards View Post
"As if at my door"..was what Sarah said.
But did she say this, Michael?

Perhaps you are referring to the Daily Telegraph report of the inquest in which she is reported as saying:

"It seemed like the voice of a young woman. It sounded at our door".

That is a strange expression. I haven't found it corroborated in other newspapers. According to the East London Advertiser:

"witness thought that it came from the house opposite"

But then according to the Morning Advertiser:

"The cry was from where the shop is."

Whatever she said in court was summarised in her deposition as being:

"The sound seemed to come from the direction of deceaseds room".

Nothing in the deposition is said about the sound being at her door.

If she actually said that she thought the cry came from the shop, she must have just been saying that it came from the general direction of Kelly's room, i.e. somewhere in the direction of the Dorset Street end of the court.

In her written statement, of course, she said no more than "I heard a scream like that of a young woman, and seemed to be not far away."
__________________
Orsam Books
www.orsam.co.uk
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.