Casebook: Jack the Ripper - Main
   

Introduction
Victims
Suspects
Witnesses
Ripper Letters
Police Officials
Official Documents
Press Reports
Victorian London
Message Boards
Ripper Media
Authors
Dissertations
Timelines
Games & Diversions
Photo Archive
Ripper Wiki
Casebook Examiner
Ripper Podcast
About the Casebook

Most Recent Posts:
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Joshua Rogan 16 minutes ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by gallicrow 35 minutes ago.
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - by Sam Flynn 51 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Sam Flynn 1 hour and 20 minutes ago.
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - by NickB 1 hour and 22 minutes ago.
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - by Sam Flynn 1 hour and 23 minutes ago.

Most Popular Threads:
General Suspect Discussion: Favorite suspect/s? - (29 posts)
Witnesses: Mizen's inquest statement reconstructed - (11 posts)
Witnesses: Caroline Maxwell Alibi ? - (10 posts)
A6 Murders: A6 Rebooted - (6 posts)
Mary Jane Kelly: Mary Kellys Inquest - (2 posts)
Letters and Communications: I'm not a butcher, I'm not a Yid...... - (1 posts)

Wiki Updates:
Robert Sagar
Edit: Chris
May 9, 2015, 12:32 am
Online newspaper archives
Edit: Chris
Nov 26, 2014, 10:25 am
Joseph Lawende
Edit: Chris
Mar 9, 2014, 10:12 am
Miscellaneous research resources
Edit: Chris
Feb 13, 2014, 9:28 am
Charles Cross
Edit: John Bennett
Sep 4, 2013, 8:20 pm

Most Recent Blogs:
Mike Covell: A DECADE IN THE MAKING.
February 19, 2016, 11:12 am.
Chris George: RipperCon in Baltimore, April 8-10, 2016
February 10, 2016, 2:55 pm.
Mike Covell: Hull Prison Visit
October 10, 2015, 8:04 am.
Mike Covell: NEW ADVENTURES IN RESEARCH
August 9, 2015, 3:10 am.
Mike Covell: UPDDATES FOR THE PAST 11 MONTHS
November 14, 2014, 10:02 am.
Mike Covell: Mike’s Book Releases
March 17, 2014, 3:18 am.

Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Victims > Mary Jane Kelly

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #161  
Old 04-18-2012, 04:10 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,841
Default names

Hello Jon. If 1 in 100 enlisted under a false name, then 99% did not?

Concerning his knowledge of MJ's death, would not he have been aware of her aliases as she, his?

Cheers.
LC
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 04-18-2012, 04:16 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,841
Default tip

Hello Debs. I think you are right that her case was well researched. After all, how else could they have even formed a hypothesis of collusion regarding her slayer's escape? Something must have tipped them off?

And, if I recall properly, "The Echo" sent a reporter to Cardiff in search of her antecedents. He came up empty.

Cheers.
LC
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 04-18-2012, 05:42 PM
Garry Wroe Garry Wroe is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,572
Default

Quote:
Whilst I agree with much of what you say, (including of course the necessity to "tie up" Johnto, as far as this may be possible), do we not, though, have the "City Missionary" report in the Daily News of 12th November 1888, which is at least suggestive of some limited contact with family members in Ireland?

As far as I’m aware, Dave, the Missionary story was big on hearsay but distinctly lacking in substance. It was but one of many tales doing the rounds – the claim that Kelly had a young son, for example, or her rise from the dead as related by Carrie Maxwell. Personally I attach very little credence to it.

Quote:
My own inclination would be towards a combination of "legitimate" and "illegitimate" family correspondence...after all, there doesn't seem to be any real evidence either way, so far, to say where they all were by 1888....
But if there was any communication between Kelly and her family, Dave, why did not a single relative come forward when they learned of her death? Likewise, if her name really was Mary Kelly, and if she really had been born in Ireland, and really had moved to Wales as a youngster, why is it that not a single schoolfriend, teacher, near-neighbour, shopkeeper or family associate recognized her from the various press reports and communicate such knowledge to the authorities? On top of this we have her husband’s family, the staff of the Cardiff infirmary, the cousin with whom she was supposed to have prostituted herself. It is inconceivable that not a single person made the connection between ‘their’ Mary and the woman who was murdered in Miller’s Court. Inconceivable, that is, unless Kelly had so distorted her personal history that it proved unrecognizable to those who knew her in her pre-London existence.

Quite simply, if not one of these people recognized her, they couldn’t have been in communication with her. Thus it may be concluded that her father certainly didn’t visit her, and she was in written communication with neither her mother or brother. Indeed, I would go even further and say that her family name could not have been Kelly.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 04-18-2012, 05:48 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn cates View Post
Hello Debs. I think you are right that her case was well researched. After all, how else could they have even formed a hypothesis of collusion regarding her slayer's escape? Something must have tipped them off?
That's a whole other theory, though, Lynn. Right?
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 04-18-2012, 06:28 PM
Carol Carol is offline
Detective
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 443
Default

Hi Debs!

I've been thinking about what Curious4 said somewhere recently with regard to Mary Kelly's supposed stay in the Cardiff Infirmary for some months. Curious4 mentioned that as 'lesions' on Mary's lungs could have been healed tuberculosis then maybe that was the reason why Mary was there.

What I'm wondering is: is the Cardiff Infirmary still there, and, if so, would they have records from that time still in existence?

Love,
Mum
( Sorry dear. I'm trying to remember).

Carol
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 04-18-2012, 09:27 PM
Debra A Debra A is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yorkshire England
Posts: 3,083
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol View Post
Hi Debs!

I've been thinking about what Curious4 said somewhere recently with regard to Mary Kelly's supposed stay in the Cardiff Infirmary for some months. Curious4 mentioned that as 'lesions' on Mary's lungs could have been healed tuberculosis then maybe that was the reason why Mary was there.

What I'm wondering is: is the Cardiff Infirmary still there, and, if so, would they have records from that time still in existence?

Love,
Mum
( Sorry dear. I'm trying to remember).

Carol
Hi Carol

Yes, I think a few people as well as curious have mentioned that Mary probably had tuberculosis in past discussions too. It seems likely doesn't it?

As far as I remember, Chris Scott inquired about the Cardiff Infirmary records a few years ago and was told that they no longer exist. Chris can correct me if I've remembered that wrong as it's going back a fair bit.


That gave me a good laugh, Carol! Thanks.
__________________
,,`,, Debs ,,`,,
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 04-18-2012, 10:16 PM
Cogidubnus Cogidubnus is offline
Assistant Commissioner
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: West Sussex UK
Posts: 3,145
Default

Quote:
It is inconceivable that not a single person made the connection between their Mary and the woman who was murdered in Millers Court. Inconceivable, that is, unless Kelly had so distorted her personal history that it proved unrecognizable to those who knew her in her pre-London existence.
Hi Garry. I take your point...however the south west of Ireland in those days was still truly deep-rural...many villages or hamlets, I suspect rarely saw a newspaper, and had only a very skeletal postal service to/from a nearby town, from/to which they'd collect/deliver their mail on an as-and-when basis.

(We're on one of those cusps of Irish history...the population halves between 1841 and 1891 and huge areas are only sparcely populated....the rural areas are the worst affected and this has delayed the spread of modern services into the more traditional gaeltacht...a fuller recovery from the effects of the famine years of the 1850s is still around the corner)

Under the circumstances I think it's possible Mary's family simply did not know...but also note your observations regarding the likely distortion of her history!

When all's said and done, it'll be something of a miracle if we can ever trace MJK...but, like you, I don't think that ought to stop us trying!

All the best!

Dave
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 04-18-2012, 11:19 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
Commisioner
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 13,841
Default yup

Hello Debs. Yes, I believe so.

Cheers.
LC
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 04-19-2012, 12:11 AM
Premium Member
Chris Scott Chris Scott is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ramsgate, Kent
Posts: 1,853
Default

Hi Debs
Yes it is quite some time ago but I'll see if I can find any notes on what I did about the Cardiff Infirmary - I know that nothing material came of it.
This is what I put in the Mary Kelly book:
"The Cardiff interlude lasted from the death of Davies until 1884, the year she allegedly moved to London. The only time reference Barnett quotes is the 8 or 9 months that Kelly spent in an infirmary, a period of time, perhaps, suspiciously close to that of a pregnancy carried to term. No record has ever been found of this stay of Kelly's, and we cannot be sure that it would have been in the main Cardiff Infirmary. The phrase that she "followed a bad life with a cousin," is intriguing. The usual interpretation is that the cousin of Kelly's was a prostitute and she led Mary into the life of an "unfortunate." That is certainly a possibility, but we must remember that the gender of the cousin is not specified. What if the cousin was a he, not a she? What if that stay in the infirmary was the result of a liaison with this cousin? Mere speculation, but as possible as the other version on the basis of such a paucity of fact."

The stay of Kelly in the Cardiff Infirmary COULD just have coincided with the 1881 census. This depends on many speculative dates. IF Kelly was 25 when she died she would have been born about 1863. IF she married, as Barnett states, when she was 16, this would have been about 1879. IF the marriage lasted somewhere about 1 to 2 years then Davies could have died in the colliery explosion in 1880 or 1881. IF the widowed Kelly then went to live in Cardiff with her cousin and stayed in the Infirmary this could have been in 1881.
A long time back I found the 1881 records for the main Cardiff infirmary and listed them, but there was, as far as I remember, no promising looking record.
regards
Chris S
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 04-19-2012, 12:30 AM
Premium Member
Chris Scott Chris Scott is offline
Chief Inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ramsgate, Kent
Posts: 1,853
Default

The 1881 Cardiff Infirmary Records to which I made reference in an earlier post can be found as follows:
Year 1881
Wales Census
County: Glamorgan
Borough: Cardiff
Parish: Cardiff St John
Disrict: 3a
Commencing Page 3

Address: Newport Road Infirmary, Cardiff
House Surgeon in 1881:
Thomas W Graves aged 23 born Leominster, Herefordshire
Surgeon, L.S.A., M.R.C.S.

Female Patients in 1881:
Jane Jones aged 25
Mary Morgan aged 33
Margaret Smith aged 27
Annie Roach aged 8
Letty Ann Fudge aged 7
Mary William aged 33
Phillipa Gummow aged 16
Emily Coleman aged 22
Mary Clancy aged 50
Emily scott aged 78
Eliza Nicholls aged 55
Elizabeth Griffiths aged 32
Margaret Bishop aged 48
Amy Morris aged 25
Ellen Williams aged 28
Ellen Mountign aged 33
Elizabeth Thomas aged 26
Annie Evans aged 21
Ellen Harrison aged 24
Maria Marsden aged 34
Louisa Pritchard aged 19
Elizabeth James aged 44

The only one of these listed as born in Ireland is Mary Clamcy, a washerwoman listed as born in Cork.
Quick reply to this message Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.