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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #21  
Old 10-18-2009, 05:12 PM
perrymason
 
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Although it was interesting to hear Mike describe lunch conundrums and Mexican food, I dont believe that comparing how sitting decisions are made when eating... to a killer deciding to try a new acquisition and location style for killing, is what amounts to a valid comparative.....with due respect to Mike.

If you want to believe that Mary went out wthout accepted evidence that says she did...if you want to believe that the killer who killed 4 women outdoors suddenly decides to try something new....like he is just self entertaining, not a victim of a disturbed mind with murderous compulsions,.....and if you want to imagine that Jack sought out a stranger in a courtyard that was less than 10 feet wide, had few tenants, and required that he enter what amounts to a tunnel that is easily blocked from either end,....then you should enjoy entertaining the notion that this kill is a good fit with the previous Ripper kills.

Personally, Ill stick to the activities in that room, the manner of acquisition and attack, the focal points of the rooms activities and the evidence that suggests Mary may well have been asleep from 1:30am until the "oh-murder" call at around 3:45am, if that was her...and without any attack sounds that would inevitably follow had a stranger been seen by her in her dark room,.....that evidence doesnt suggest a natural fit with the Canonical Group.

1 of 5 of the Canonical Group was assumed to have been killed indoors,... the last victim, the one that has wounds none of the previous women had, the one that was half their age, the one that defended herself against a man holding a knife when the evidence in all the priors is that Jack didnt even pull out a knife until his victims were fully "co-operative" and lying on the ground, the one that has 2 former live in lovers as boyfriends simultaneously, and the one that tossed one out of the room 10 days before her death, .......this murder is a contrast to the priors....not a fit for the "Canon".

Cheers all.
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  #22  
Old 10-18-2009, 05:57 PM
c.d. c.d. is offline
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Hi Michael,

Well if you are looking for differences in the murders, you are going to find them no question about it. How can we conclude that Polly, Annie and Kate were killed by the same hand when there were differences in each of their murders? Why ignore some differences and then focus on others? That seems to be a clear case of picking and choosing what we want to focus on. I don't think it is enough to say well yes but they had so many things in common. If there were 100 murders, there would still be differences in each and every one.

c.d.
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  #23  
Old 10-18-2009, 06:17 PM
perrymason
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c.d. View Post
Hi Michael,

Well if you are looking for differences in the murders, you are going to find them no question about it. How can we conclude that Polly, Annie and Kate were killed by the same hand when there were differences in each of their murders? Why ignore some differences and then focus on others? That seems to be a clear case of picking and choosing what we want to focus on. I don't think it is enough to say well yes but they had so many things in common. If there were 100 murders, there would still be differences in each and every one.

c.d.
I dont think the problem is as great as you paint it cd.

The murder of Mary Ann and that of Annie Chapmans seem by the evidence to have begun, engaged and concluded in almost identical fashion, the only real significant departure is the fact that only the second one gives up any organs, and the move to more private surrounds. That leads to a natural question of whether the first murder was really complete.

The fact is that this represents escalation....which would be consistent with murderers, ...that it signals a preference for a certain pattern or sequence of actions due to its immediately being repeated,.. it signals calculated thoughts by the killer reflected in a venue change from the street to a backyard, and when you closely examine wounds like the throat cuts themselves and the manner in which that was accomplished.....its not hard to imagine that these 2 women suffered at the same hand....by a killer who killed them to obtain organs inside them, based on the escalation.

My contention is that these features are a part of the killers work;

1. He poses as a client, he doesnt "pounce". Stranger to stranger.
2. He subdues them quickly and efficiently without using a knife.
3. He severely cuts the throats. This to me is one area where a Torso type killer might be seen....he almost cuts the heads off.
4. He opens the midsections and extracts organs to take with him, placing obstacle tissues aside.

I think thats the lowdown on Jack myself. If none of these are present, or in later kills, some are present but not as openly interpretive as the early kills were,...then I dont see Jack there.

All the best cd
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  #24  
Old 10-18-2009, 07:16 PM
miss marple miss marple is offline
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Default Mart's circumstance

We have to consider Mary's circumstances. She was a well known prostitute, when she met Barnett, When she lived wth him and he was able to support her, she was off the game. When he lost his job,and left Miller's Court she went back on the game.
Lots of people would have known Joe had left. She would certainly have advertised her availability in the Brittania and the Ten Bells her old haunt. She had the great advantage of a room of her own. Jack could be watching her or bying her a drink in her local. A familier face, planning his move.
She was murdered a few days after Joe left.
We know Jack took riisks, cutting women in the street, when he could be caught any moment, so the prospect of a room, where he could take his time and fufill his wildest fantasies of butchery woulkd seem an opportunity too good to miss.

Everyone kept themselves to themselves, it was'nt good to interfer in other people's business. If a man battered his wife on saturaday night, nobody heard it, nobody heard Jack either, or the murder of Tabrum on a stairwell.
Jack was taking less risk by entering Mary's room, his crimes were exceptionally quiet, once the victim was dead. No one was going to enter Mary's room, or be concerned about what was going on in there.
The killing of Mary Kelly was closer to the signature of Jack than any other female murder. He had the time, perhaps had the others been murdered indoors, their mutilations would have been similar.
Perhaps the circomstances of Mary created the opportunity.

Miss Marple
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  #25  
Old 10-18-2009, 07:45 PM
perrymason
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miss marple View Post
We have to consider Mary's circumstances. She was a well known prostitute, when she met Barnett, When she lived wth him and he was able to support her, she was off the game. 1. When he lost his job,and left Miller's Court she went back on the game.
Lots of people would have known Joe had left. She would certainly have advertised her availability in the Brittania and the Ten Bells her old haunt. 2. She had the great advantage of a room of her own. Jack could be watching her or bying her a drink in her local. A familier face, planning his move.
She was murdered a few days after Joe left.
We know Jack took riisks, cutting women in the street, when he could be caught any moment, so the prospect of a room, 3.....where he could take his time and fufill his wildest fantasies of butchery woulkd seem an opportunity too good to miss.

Everyone kept themselves to themselves, it was'nt good to interfer in other people's business. If a man battered his wife on saturaday night, nobody heard it, nobody heard Jack either, or the murder of Tabrum on a stairwell.
4. Jack was taking less risk by entering Mary's room, his crimes were exceptionally quiet, once the victim was dead. 5. No one was going to enter Mary's room, or be concerned about what was going on in there.
6. The killing of Mary Kelly was closer to the signature of Jack than any other female murder. He had the time, perhaps had the others been murdered indoors, their mutilations would have been similar.
Perhaps the circomstances of Mary created the opportunity.

Miss Marple
Hi Miss Marple,

I disagree with so much of the above that I thought it best to address it systematically, so I highlighted and numbered some statements so I dont lose track.. ....

1. When Joe left Millers Court we have no evidence that suggests she went back on her game, or that his presence was the sole reason she hadnt worked steadily and they had fallen behind further in rent. He stated he didnt want her working the streets which in and of itself suggests where she "worked". There is not one bit of evidence that Mary came to her room with anyone she didnt know personally during that period.

2. She had a great advantage having a room over most women her age who were alone, thats true, but we have no records that indicate she ever used a personal residence in her name for prostitution, and we can surely accept that having ones own space to oneself might lend itself to her having privacy she never had before. Would she bring strange men into her room while the Ripper scare is still about? I dont see any reason why she would...she was delinquent in rent yet not in danger of immediate eviction apparently.

3. Who says the man that killed Polly and Annie had "wild fantasies of butchery"? Seems to me the evidence submitted suggests that man had a goal that he achieved with Annie and not with Polly, and he acheived it with some skill and knowledge. They werent just cut wildly...they were cut open in an area so they could donate organs from that area.

4. Room 13 is the ONLY alledged Ripper location that had only one access in and out to the crime scene, and the location of the bed meant that he worked with his back to the windows and door. Hardly the safest spot. Maybe the less traveled.

5. We have 2 witness who live there that testified they noticed light, or not, and noise from Marys room that night. Neighbors are neighbors even in the LVP.

6. Mary Jane was half the age of the prior assumed victims, she was killed in her own room by a killer who likely came to her while she slept, she is butchered far beyond any prior Ripper murder, the assumed focus for the first 2 murders is clearly absent in that murder, and he started the assault using his knife....something that happened in none of the priors, excluding Liz Stride perhaps. Another questionable inclusion.

The truth is that Mary Jane was either an anomaly if Jack, a victim he chooses differently and kills for different reasons in different places....or she is quite obviously primary intended to be an organ donor.

For my money she an anomaly, and as such, questionable, ....she also has a love triangle ongoing, which none of the others had happening.

All the best Miss M.
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  #26  
Old 10-19-2009, 12:34 AM
JosephDurham JosephDurham is offline
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Perhaps the fact that the murder took pplace inddors has something to do with the necessity of the murder. If we look at the Prince being involved, it is a possibility that there was no other way to carry this out, but by murdering her in her bed?

Joseph
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  #27  
Old 10-19-2009, 12:52 AM
Victor Victor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perrymason View Post
4. Room 13 is the ONLY alledged Ripper location that had only one access in and out to the crime scene, and the location of the bed meant that he worked with his back to the windows and door. Hardly the safest spot. Maybe the less traveled.
Hi Mike,

How many exits does the backyard of Hanbury street have?

KR,
Vic.

ps. Assuming that jumping over a fence is equivalent to jumping through a window.
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Truth is female, since truth is beauty rather than handsomeness; this [...] would certainly explain the saying that a lie could run around the world before Truth has got its, correction, her boots on, since she would have to chose which pair - the idea that any woman in a position to choose would have just one pair of boots being beyond rational belief.
Unseen Academicals - Terry Pratchett.
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  #28  
Old 10-19-2009, 01:44 AM
Mascara & Paranoia Mascara & Paranoia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephDurham View Post
Perhaps the fact that the murder took pplace inddors has something to do with the necessity of the murder. If we look at the Prince being involved, it is a possibility that there was no other way to carry this out, but by murdering her in her bed?
Ah, but didn't the Prince kill his other victims out on the street?
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  #29  
Old 10-19-2009, 01:46 AM
JosephDurham JosephDurham is offline
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Not if the prince did not kill the victims, but the murderer was hired by the royal family.
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  #30  
Old 10-19-2009, 01:52 AM
Mascara & Paranoia Mascara & Paranoia is offline
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That makes more sense. Though you're gonna have to refresh my memory, I haven't watched From Hell in a while, what was the royal family's motive again?
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