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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #11  
Old 10-18-2009, 07:46 AM
celee celee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OctavBotnar View Post
Why did JTR change his MO for his last killing by switching indoors and therefore i assume having some prior contact ?
My understanding from these forums is that JTR chanced upon his victims.Now , i assume this was not the most impractical method for him as not only could be risked being caught but he also needed to act very quickly and escape.This all though does fit in with his disorganised profiling .
But I would have thought JTR would want to savour the fruits of his work and not be all over in a rush .So why was there only one indoor murder - or was there simply not the privacy for JTR to act out his killings?
Hey,

The Ripper did not change his MO. The reason he killed Kelly indoors is simple, she took him there. Had Kelly worked off of some dark street she would have been killed in the street. It is simple. All the victims took Jack to the spot they were killed.

In my opinion all the victims were chanced upon. Jack may have chose the unforunates he thought were easy prey, Worst for drink or older. Kelly fits his type.

Since the Kelly murder was committed inside. Jack was free to indulge in every sick fantasy. He probably would have loved to kill all his victims indoors.

Your friend, Brad
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  #12  
Old 10-18-2009, 10:05 AM
Cap'n Jack Cap'n Jack is offline
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So 'he came in through the garden window' then?
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  #13  
Old 10-18-2009, 10:50 AM
richardnunweek richardnunweek is offline
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Hi,
We are left with two questions..'Was Mjks killer JTR? , or was she the result of a 'Copycat'?
I am flying against the medical findings and suggest that Kelly was killed by the man seen by Caroline Maxwell at 845am on the morning of the 9th. 'the never discussed man 'dressed like a market porter.
Was he Jack? proberly yes, and I feel that she during conversation she suggested that they returned to her room, after all there was no chance of danger at 9am in the morning she would have convinced herself.
The man said [realising he had to fetch his knive] 'Give me five minutes , I have to make an excuse at work' to which came the reply'All right luv, just turn down Millers court second door on the right, come straight in.'
She returns to her room, and proceeds to undress, down to her chemise, she ,may have removed her left stocking and placed in over the bedroll, just before her killer entered the room. then seeing she was very much alone commenced his attack taking poor Mary by complete surprise.
Sorry for the fiction bits , but one should get the drift.
Summing up it suited the killer to work in daylight , for [a] better light, [b]better chance of not being caught, no one expected him to strike during the daytime, and it would have certainly put his victim of guard.
Regards Richard.
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2009, 11:26 AM
harry harry is offline
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Richard,
Whatever the time of day,why did the killer need to copy anyone?Why with Kelly especially?If the result was a chance meeting that morning,with daylight and a busy area to contend with,one might expect that if a murder was contemplated at all,a quick entry and kill was more the likely thinking.Kelly's death and mutilation,to me, speaks more of a killer who had already carried out similar crimes.
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  #15  
Old 10-18-2009, 11:51 AM
jacks reincarnation jacks reincarnation is offline
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easy he knew all the girls anyway, he was freinds with them and married to one of them. he was prostituting his gay ass around the east end and built a freindship with the girls as a way to spy on them to get info about his secret wifes affair.

mary kely was the last of 6 murderes. she told eddy whist he was dressed as a woman that she wanted the money to go back to ireland.

eddy said he would give it to her , if she slept with him , so she invited him back to her place where they had sex , then eddy murdered marry kelly
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  #16  
Old 10-18-2009, 11:56 AM
jacks reincarnation jacks reincarnation is offline
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you are part right , mary kelly did take eddy back to her place for sex as he offered her the money to go back to ireland .

but the double killing took place not on the street but in a private mens club where eddy and his accomplice lured the girls down stairs into the back entrance of the club where the coaches are and strangled the girls .
they aslo filmed the killings on an old fashion film video
then they took the bodies by coach to the murder sites and cut them .

one after the other , which is why they were so close ,
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  #17  
Old 10-18-2009, 11:58 AM
celee celee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardnunweek View Post
Hi,
We are left with two questions..'Was Mjks killer JTR? , or was she the result of a 'Copycat'?
I am flying against the medical findings and suggest that Kelly was killed by the man seen by Caroline Maxwell at 845am on the morning of the 9th. 'the never discussed man 'dressed like a market porter.
Was he Jack? proberly yes, and I feel that she during conversation she suggested that they returned to her room, after all there was no chance of danger at 9am in the morning she would have convinced herself.
The man said [realising he had to fetch his knive] 'Give me five minutes , I have to make an excuse at work' to which came the reply'All right luv, just turn down Millers court second door on the right, come straight in.'
She returns to her room, and proceeds to undress, down to her chemise, she ,may have removed her left stocking and placed in over the bedroll, just before her killer entered the room. then seeing she was very much alone commenced his attack taking poor Mary by complete surprise.
Sorry for the fiction bits , but one should get the drift.
Summing up it suited the killer to work in daylight , for [a] better light, [b]better chance of not being caught, no one expected him to strike during the daytime, and it would have certainly put his victim of guard.
Regards Richard.

Hi,

Okay, I think Kelly left her room after 3am Still confused by drink she meets Jack. Kelly invites the Ripper back to her room. She tells him she lives alone and that he will be very comfortable. The two proceed to her room. Jack watches as Kelly sticks her hand through the broken window to unlock the door. Upon entering the room Kelly starts to undress folding her cloths beside the bed. Mary lies down in a positive position. Jack walks over and attacks her. Kelly manages to let out a screem of Oh murder that it heard by Prater and Lewis around 3:45am. The Ripper does his worst and leaves just before dawn sticking his hand through the broken window to lock the door. I do not believe he started a fire and I think the cloths were burned earlier that day.

Your friend, Brad
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  #18  
Old 10-18-2009, 12:57 PM
kensei kensei is offline
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A little late chiming in here. I would disagree with Perrymason (though not harshly at all) where he talks about there being "no evidence" of many of the commonly held assumptions. There is a difference between "evidence" and "proof," and it can certainly be said that there is no proof of so many things in the Ripper case. But evidence covers absolutely anything- physical, anecdotal, even speculative- that has been able to be gathered about the case. For instance, one may reject George Hutchinson's story of seeing Mary Jane encounter Astrakan Man at 2 a.m. as being fabricated, but it is still a piece of evidence. If made up, it would just be false evidence.

On the topic itself, only one indoor murder. Well, if one branches out a bit to include other murders that have been considered as being possibly the work of the Ripper (whether credibly or not), just off the top of my head we have Ada Wilson in March 1888 in the East End, Carrie Brown in April 1891 in New York U.S.A., and Emily Dimmock in September 1907 in Camdentown, London, all attacked indoors.
(Oops, I should have said "murders or attempted murders," as Ada didn't die.)

Last edited by kensei : 10-18-2009 at 01:02 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-18-2009, 04:34 PM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Good Michael View Post
You see, I wanted Mexican food and that craving allowed me to do something a bit different. I would do it again once I get the craving, though the window purchases are a bit more convenient.
A very good analogy, Mike - simple and clear!

Frank
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  #20  
Old 10-18-2009, 05:08 PM
FrankO FrankO is offline
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Originally Posted by perrymason View Post
For example, If he actually killed only Mary Ann and Annie and perhaps Kate, then he is actually a very organized killer by the evidence left behind.
I do agree that JtR wasn't completely disorganised, but 'very organized', Michael? What about the very fact that he killed outdoors, where anybody could walk into the scene at any given second. From whatever angle you're looking at it, choosing to kill outdoors in a densely populated district with police and people out in the streets at all hours of night is simply far from ‘very organized’.
Quote:
You said you though JtR would want to savour his acts.....thats a good observation about a killer that loves the killing itself and perhaps torture as well.....
Why couldn’t a killer who gets his kicks out of mutilating dead bodies want to savour their acts?
Quote:
(the "oh-murder" heard by 2 witnesses at approx 3:45am cannot be the start of that altercation because no words follow that and no sounds or movements are heard,...
Where’s the evidence of ‘that altercation’? All we have is physical evidence that suggests that MJK was killed while lying close to the wooden partition and that the defense she had wanted to put up was very short-lived.

If the cry came from her, it had either nothing directly to do with the attack in which she was killed, or it was uttered right before her throat was cut. That last possibility shouldn’t be swept under the carpet – there is no reason for that at all.
Quote:
and the space between the open door or window to Marys bed would allow for her to get out more than 2 words),...
…Which suggests there was no altercation starting while she was in bed with her killer entering her room. There’s no compelling reason to think the window or door was open when the cry was uttered to begin with.
Quote:
... leaving behind the organ that probably caused the first 2 murders, in the opinion of the men that examined those women.
We mustn’t forget that Dr Phillips (because that's the only one we're talking about here) didn’t have any experience with serial killers of this caliber and that he was only trying to make sense of the murders - without this experience. So, even though the womb ‘probably’ caused the first 2 murders according to Dr. Phillips, that doesn’t mean it ‘probably’ did in reality. Or that therefore, he couldn't have left it in a future murder.
Quote:
Short story made long, but, the ONLY reason you will ever hear that Jack the Ripper wanted, needed, desired, or actually did kill indoors is so Mary Jane Kelly can be attributed to him.
Although I admire Michael’s tenacity to take apart the so-called canonical group, I think that for most who believe MJK was (probably) killed at Jack’s hands, this obviously isn’t the reason why we attribute her to him. It would be a little silly to just want to attribute her to him because we want to.

As far as I can see, the main reason for Michael saying this is because he can’t believe that, with MJK, JtR might have been the kid who found himself alone in a candy shop and who’d feast himself on more than just one or two lollipops. He simply has decided he’s not.

Cheers, Mike!
Frank
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