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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #21  
Old 10-11-2009, 10:06 PM
Natalie Severn Natalie Severn is offline
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Hi Ben,
See the now famous artists impression from the "illustrated Police News" of 24th November 1888 showing" the suspect for the Kelly murder" , the image it says is "as described by the witness George Hutchinson".In this image the man has definitely got "deep set eyes" and Hutchinson actually said he had a "pale complexion" rather than a "sallow one" but they mean more or less the same thing.
In the above image the man"s upper facial features - including the rather glowering deep set eyes ---are a dead ringer for George Chapman"s glowering deep set eyes -see them too in the photo taken of him with with Bessie Taylor.An even better example of his dress style and facial features is in Don Rumbelow"s," Complete JtR "page 176 where Chapman is sitting posing with a rose in his lapel and wearing a smart dress suit,black tie ,waistcoat etc and sporting a big black moustache.People can see these images if need be on the Casebook"s information under " Suspects.>Klosowski" see left hand column under Introduction on here.
Cheers
Norma
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  #22  
Old 10-11-2009, 11:21 PM
lynn cates lynn cates is offline
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Hello Mike. I appreciate your discussion and "limp" conjecture. I believe I read somewhere that Roslyn D'Onston had a gammy leg.

Interesting.

Cheers.
LC
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  #23  
Old 10-12-2009, 12:02 AM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi Norma,

The Illustrated Police News was not a police-endorsed newspaper, despite its name, so I really wouldn't invest too much stock in the sketch featured therein. In any case, I didn't think the sketch depicted particularly "deep set eyes" and I would dispute that sallow means "pale". It refers instead to a sickly or yellowish complexion. Klosowski was in no position, as a relatively impoverished immigrant, to dress as ostentatiously as the man described by Hutchinson, and he was unlikely to have comminicated in conversational English at that time either. Then there's the total mismatch when it comes to age etc.

I couldn't caution more strongly against using either Arthur Neil or the Illustrated Police News to argue for Klosowski's candidacy or the veracity of Hutchinson's description, which was in any case discredited.

Best regards,
Ben
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  #24  
Old 10-12-2009, 01:18 AM
Roy Corduroy Roy Corduroy is offline
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Hi Ben,

f that sketch is not officially police sanctioned, then how can we know that this newspaper report is officially sanctioned either?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
On 15th November, it was stated in The Star that Hutchinson's account was "now discredited", and subsequent police observations bear this out in many respects.
Irregardless, perhaps the police had reasons for discounting Hutch's statements other than ones that would cause him to be a suspect. The same for the fixed point PC telling Mr. Galloway that the prior description of Blotchy Face was no longer of interest.

Maybe by this time the police were looking for James Kelly, who, by the way, was cunning enough to turn on the charm if it suited his purpose.

Roy
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  #25  
Old 10-12-2009, 01:20 AM
Natalie Severn Natalie Severn is offline
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Ben,

By always suggesting as you do that Inspector Abberline"s witness statement from Hutchinson was just a load of old rubbish you make it a bit difficult to have a reasonable discussion about what Hutchinson actually said "happened "in terms of the "exchange" in other words the rippers actual "approach" or charm factor! Hutchinson said he had seen Mary Kelly on the night of her murder at 2am with this well dressed man .Clearly this particular man,if he did exist, made Mary Kelly feel good----she allegedly laughed with him over a joke and went off arm in arm with him after he had kissed her.He had a certain rather "charming" or quite friendly manner with her.
Its also worth remembering that Abberline made a point of very clearly stating he himself believed Hutchinson"s account, which,Ben, is why I would like the exact details of when this "discrediting" took place you talk about, because I have never found any hard evidence whatsoever that Hutchinson was "discredited" by Abberline or anyone else-just that they didnt ever catch such a man but rather may simply have "moved on" to other suspects such as student doctors etc.
But if Hutchinson did see this man ,then the matter of his approach is actually very important to the case.It was, after all, the last time Mary Kelly was seen alive and it appears she knew this man ,perhaps from previous "business" with him and went off with him as she had before and,if he was the Ripper,then his method of approach ,was one of "bonhomie" and/ or he only approached women he had done business with previously.
Take the man of respectable dress aged about 28 [ok not 35 like Hutch"s man] but similarly pale complexioned and of similar height- 5ft 7 ins and carrying a similar sized "parcel" seen by PC Smith in Berner St at 12.35 talking to Liz Stride who was wearing a rose in her lapel.They were chatting.James Brown appears to have seen the same couple---the man was wearing the same sort of hat and a dark overcoat etc moments later,about 12.45 am and he heard the woman say,"No not tonight some other night".By this time the man had his arm up against the wall of the board school and Liz had her back to it.It sounds as though Liz may have known him from "these other nights" and if so and he was her killer did he mostly approach women he had already been with and who were quite friendly with him like the recent Ipswich murderer was with his victims?Was this man the same man in a black coat,decently dressed of middling height who William Marshall had seen with the woman he later identified as Liz Stride a good hour earlier"a kissing and a"cuddling" her by the school......sounds a bit like Hutchinson"s man this who he kissed Kelly and then walked home with her linking arms !
Cheers
Norma

Last edited by Natalie Severn : 10-12-2009 at 01:25 AM.
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  #26  
Old 10-12-2009, 03:15 AM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi Roy,

Quote:
f that sketch is not officially police sanctioned, then how can we know that this newspaper report is officially sanctioned either?
We can't, but we can note that it just happened to coincide with subsequent police reports, memoirs and interviews that also just happened to lend weight to the conclusion that Hutchinson's description was subsequently discredited. In this case, we're talking about two independent press reports that attested to the same observation at around the same time. As for Galloway, we have no way of knowing if the policeman in question was ever identified, or whether or not he uttered the words attributed to him.

Hi Norma,

Quote:
By always suggesting as you do that Inspector Abberline"s witness statement from Hutchinson was just a load of old rubbish you make it a bit difficult to have a reasonable discussion about what Hutchinson actually said "happened "in terms of the "exchange" in other words the rippers actual "approach" or charm factor!
I think the above provides the best example of the real obstacle to "reasonable discussion", since you've used the assumption that Hutchinson must have been telling the truth and must have seen the ripper to make bold inferences as to how "charming" Jack was. My examination of the evidence leads me to the conclusion that Hutchinson lied, most probably in an effort to deflect suspicion away from himself and his own proximity to a crime scene. We can wax lyrical about what might be inferred IF Astrakhan existed and killed Kelly, but it ultimately boils down to whether you believe Hutchinson or not. For my part, I'd argue that IF Astrakhan existed and was the ripper, he was the conveniently stereotypical paint-by-numbers amalgamation of the sinister Jewish bogeyman/toff image of the killer that had been bandied around since "Leather Apron", and that he attired himself in that fashion when out on the prowl despite press and public clamouring for the capture for precisely such a figure.

I don't find that remotely convincing, personally.

Quote:
why I would like the exact details of when this "discrediting" took place you talk about, because I have never found any hard evidence whatsoever that Hutchinson was "discredited" by Abberline or anyone else
Well, I'd respectfully submit that you haven't been looking as hard as you should have been, and that it would have been advisable to have a thumb through that link I provided to the Hutchinson thread. There are plentiful and compelling indications that Hutchinson's description was ultimately discredited as a means of capturing the murderer, and they have been discussed ad nauseam on the threads that are dedicated to that topic.

Quote:
just that they didnt ever catch such a man but rather may simply have "moved on" to other suspects such as student doctors etc
That's not how a responsible investigative force works. Once you've acquired evidence that you think will prove valuable in the future, you keep it in reserve until the opportune moment surfaces; for example, when a suspect is investigated and you need your star eyewitness to look him over. This occurred in this case, and yet we're informed that a Jewish eyewitness was used in identity parades, despite none of the Jewish eyewitnesses proffering a sighting or description anywhere near as detailed as the one Hutchinson claimed to have garnered. How or why would this have happened if Hutchinson was still considered a credible witness?

Quote:
Take the man of respectable dress aged about 28 [ok not 35 like Hutch"s man] but similarly pale complexioned and of similar height- 5ft 7 ins and carrying a similar sized "parcel"
It wasn't "similar" sized at all.

It was completely different.

In any case, the man who was observed by Schwartz attacking Liz Stride didn't look much like Smith's man.

I have to ask; why do you always focus on the "respectable" descriptions and pay such little attention to the others, such as Lawende's sighting of a boringly shabby man in a peaked-cap? Yes, I agree with the suggestion that the killer may have been a previous client, but he needn't have possessed any excess of charm (i.e charm beyond the average member of the working class poor) to coerce the compliance of his victims.

Best regards,
Ben

Last edited by Ben : 10-12-2009 at 03:25 AM.
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  #27  
Old 10-12-2009, 06:26 AM
Lex Lex is offline
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just to pop this in . . .

When I think Jack the Ripper, I would very much like to think of a charming, mysterious man who cunningly lures in his victims -- I'm sure a lot of us would.

But the women that were killed were prostitutes. They weren't looking for charm. They were looking for money. And also, handsome men back then would've been snatched up pretty quickly by women, but most profiles said he would've had a great disgust and loathing for them. It is also speculated that he was most likely unmarried. It would've been widely noticed if someone who had many women falling all over him and didn't even show interest in them (and if he did, wouldn't it be noticed if he never married)? In which case he probably would've been thought a homosexual, but whatever. It still would've been noticed.

I don't know. I think it's very probable that he was a man who used charm to draw in his victims, but it's also very probable that he wasn't.
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  #28  
Old 10-12-2009, 10:38 AM
Natalie Severn Natalie Severn is offline
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Hi Ben,
I have actually read your stuff on Hutchinson previously and have not seen any spelt out "discreditation" as you put it,but if you believe its what can be inferred thats fine .Several police officers cited the PC Smith description put out at the time ,of the man being 5ft 7 approx,respectably dressed, in a dark cut away coat,dark deer stalker cap,aged about 28 pale ,carrying a newspaper parcel and both Inspector Godley who worked on both the ripper case and Arthur Neil cited this description and both Police inspectors very much supported Abberline"s view,even many years later, of Chapman as the Ripper,a man who could apparently charm the birds off the trees!
Ben - I have said what I wanted and its ok to differ.
BTW I dont dismiss Lawende"s man,its just that Lawende insisted to police he couldnt remember the man and couldnt be sure he would recognise him again so I am a bit more cautious than some about his description.
Cheers
Norma

Last edited by Natalie Severn : 10-12-2009 at 10:41 AM.
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2009, 02:38 PM
Ben Ben is offline
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Hi Norma,

Quote:
I have actually read your stuff on Hutchinson previously and have not seen any spelt out "discreditation" as you put it,but if you believe its what can be inferred thats fine
It was the very word The Star used on 15th November under the heading: Worthless Stories Lead the Police on False Scents.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881115.html

I'm not disputing the veracity of the PC Smith sighting, but I'm doubtful that the man described was Stride's killer on the grounds that another suspect was seen afterwards by Schwartz whose appearance and behaviour didn't mesh up too well with Smith's. Neither of them sound much like Klosowski either. At least with the Lawende's sighting, the timing provided a reasonable degree of assurance that the man seen was the ripper.

Quote:
both Police inspectors very much supported Abberline"s view,even many years later, of Chapman as the Ripper,a man who could apparently charm the birds off the trees!
Possibly an exaggeration?

All the best,
Ben
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  #30  
Old 10-12-2009, 08:16 PM
Monty Monty is offline
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Came here to have a read on Jack and charm but seems I have wandered onto a Hutchinson/witness thread.

Monty
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