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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #2021  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:05 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Not the fine-toothed type of saw that is used to cut human bones, though, at least not during the type of construction work done in the vaults. A fine-toothed saw is much more about delicate wood details. My son´s a carpenter and a cabinet-maker, so I know roughly what is used.
A carpenter/joiner would use a mitre saw or back saw, keyhole saw, hack saw and various other types of fine-tooth saws.
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  #2022  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:09 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Not en route to work, en route home. That is if she was killed and dismembered in the vault. The arm would have possibly been dropped on his way home; thrown over the embankment wall. Or another possibility for the arm is IF (hate to use the word but oh well) J.T Chappell's yard was used for cutting timber or supplying timber to the site, the arm may have been transferred that way.

The Backchurch Lane deposit is a tough one no matter how we look at it. It was different than the other three, yet thought to be connected. I really don't have a good explanation for it so I won't even try. I do keep in the back of my mind the fact the property was owned and used by the Board of Works. That could have some sort of connection with a builder.
But why would he take an arm along as he went home? If he was fine with using the vault as a dumping site for the torso and leg, then why not the rest? And did he thrown the other leg in the Thames too?
It adds up rather poorly to my mind.
Then again, I have no idea why Lechmere would add a leg to the torso.
It´s all very confusing, and there is something we are missing, I amcertain of that.

As for Pinchin Street, Lechmere is the only suspect with an obvious link to it. And just how likely is it that a man who just happened to be found with a Ripper victim would also get a torso victim dumped in the street where he grew up? What are the odds?
Add to this that Lechmere has logical ties to all of the other sites, and I think we need not extend our search any more.
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  #2023  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:10 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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A carpenter/joiner would use a mitre saw or back saw, keyhole saw, hack saw and various other types of fine-tooth saws.
Carpenters use fine-tooth saws, yes - but would they need them down in the vault and thereabouts? I doubt it, but I can´t exclude that there was such a saw about.
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  #2024  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:18 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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Carpenters use fine-tooth saws, yes - but would they need them down in the vault and thereabouts? I doubt it, but I can´t exclude that there was such a saw about.
Whether they needed them for work down there or not is beside the point; that's where they stored their tools for safe keeping. If a saw was part of their tool kit, it would have been kept with their hammers and everything else at the end of the day so it didn't get stolen. That's why Wildbore stored his tools in what was said to be the most secret place on the site. He felt that particular vault was safer than the locker that was built for storing the workers tools three weeks prior.
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  #2025  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:27 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Whether they needed them for work down there or not is beside the point; that's where they stored their tools for safe keeping. If a saw was part of their tool kit, it would have been kept with their hammers and everything else at the end of the day so it didn't get stolen. That's why Wildbore stored his tools in what was said to be the most secret place on the site. He felt that particular vault was safer than the locker that was built for storing the workers tools three weeks prior.
You may well be correct, Jerry. It would make sense if they stored all tools in the same place, of course. I guess I was thinking about how I do work myself, always bringing what I need and nothing more.

About Wildbores thoughts about how safe and secluded the vault was - if he was the killer, then why not move the torso to a vault that did not have "Frederick Wildbore is just about the only man ever to come here" written all over it? Any ideas?

Last edited by Fisherman : 11-12-2017 at 11:30 AM.
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  #2026  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:29 AM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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If he was fine with using the vault as a dumping site for the torso and leg, then why not the rest?
I already explained it's because the killer was separating parts in an effort to prevent identification. this is basically the whole point of his operation but you seem to miss it. and please don't bother telling me if I want to talk to you I have to call you by the name you want. i'm free to respond to you and you're free not to respond
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  #2027  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:40 AM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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I already explained it's because the killer was separating parts in an effort to prevent identification. this is basically the whole point of his operation but you seem to miss it. and please don't bother telling me if I want to talk to you I have to call you by the name you want. i'm free to respond to you and you're free not to respond

But of course I will tell you that if you want to talk to me, you should not call me names. That is something that you are NOT free to do, not by any standards. The administrators of the boards do not allow it, and if they pick up on it, they will suspend you.
Not that I am going to tell them, I will instead keep telling you that if you want a debate, you need to grow up and start acting accordingly.
I will do that every time, Rocky, since we owe it to ourselves to try and better those of our fellow posters who are acting like kindergarten kids.
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  #2028  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:42 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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I don't think Lechmere can be discounted, mind you. We don't know a whole lot about Wildbore, Richard Lawrence or any of the various other workmen at the site at this point. For all we know, Wildbore does have some sort of connection to the East End that has yet to be discovered. Lechmere has been studied for years so the "big picture" of him is easier to speculate upon. But, I will say, I don't see Lechmere navigating to a most secreted spot in the basement of the new police offices to deposit the torso. The men had 21,000 square feet of space, a storage locker, etc. to choose to put their tools. For a dead body to end up where they kept their tools, in a place known to only a few, is extremely suspicious to me.

Here is a good theory of the time in The People Oct. 7, 1888. And other newspapers reported on the same type of theory. They, as I, thought it had to be someone familiar with the site. If Lechmere was familiar with the site, then he is at the top of my list.

THE DISCOVERY ON THE EMBANKMENT.
A New Theory.

With regard to the horrible discovery of mutilated remains made in Cannon row, the first idea was that the murderer had climbed an 8ft hoarding in Cannon row, by reason of its loneliness, darkness, and unprotectedness, dragging after him the parcel containing the body, that in the dark he made his way to the darkest and most secret part of the unwatched works, and then picked out, in the darkness, the place which would always be dark. This, however, is now thought to be impossible. It is also considered impossible for any one to have brought the load in at working time through any of the gates where the workers enter and leave, all these, it must be remarked, being in Cannon row. Equally unlikely was it for any one to have climbed the hoarding in daylight on Saturday afternoon or Sunday when it would only have been possible to have walked across the works, for though there are few people about on these days, there are always some, as Cannon row has a public house at each end of its short length, and there are always people about in the daytime. On examination of the other sides of the site it was considered equally improbable that the murderer found his way either from the gardens at the rear of Buccleuch House or from the west side. Moreover, the hoarding next the Thames Embankment is very high, and the drop from it would be through a cobweb of scaffolding into unknown depths. There is, therefore, only left the road by which the loaded carts enter, and curiously enough this is the nearest way to the recess where the body was found.

Supposed to have been Brought in a Cart.

Brought in a cart, and carried as a load across the planks on to the building, its disposal would be easy in the recess, even though workmen were about, for the multitude of these are unobservant of such things as particular parcels being carried, especially if it were wrapped or covered in a cement bag. The murderer, too, could have chosen the dinner hour at which the cart should arrive, if, as is surmised, it was so brought. Upon another point there is no doubt whatever, and that is that the deposit was made by someone intimately acquainted with all the intricacies of the underground part of the works. This fact narrows the examination, and the authorities are not hopeless of touching upon some evidence which will reveal the whole of the fearful crime. An important question has arisen as to the time when the body was placed on the site. It is doubted whether the men who so positively declare that it was not there on Friday are not in some way mistaken - if they had not spoken of one recess without looking into this most remote one.
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  #2029  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:47 AM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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But, I will say, I don't see Lechmere navigating to a most secreted spot in the basement of the new police offices to deposit the torso.
I don't see him travelling to the other side of London to drop body parts in basically the same stretch of the Thames, either. Whoever dunnit almost certainly lived in that part of town, probably in reasonable proximity to the river itself.
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  #2030  
Old 11-12-2017, 11:53 AM
jerryd jerryd is offline
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You may well be correct, Jerry. It would make sense if they stored all tools in the same place, of course. I guess I was thinking about how I do work myself, always bringing what I need and nothing more.

About Wildbores thoughts about how safe and secluded the vault was - if he was the killer, then why not move the torso to a vault that did not have "Frederick Wildbore is just about the only man ever to come here" written all over it? Any ideas?
He may have been in the process of trying to do just that. Whoever committed this crime had buried the leg in that same vault. To decide to bury the torso would not be out of the question. I can't help but think about the story of Smoker, the dog that sniffed out the leg. Smoker had found another location in the basement that appeared to have freshly dug earth, IIRC, as if something had been buried there before. I believe it even had an odor to the journalist. Was the torso intended to be buried there but couldn't be dug deep enough to cover it? It was then taken to a spot known to be frequented only by a handful (if that) of men for temporary keeping until it could be discarded properly?

Last edited by jerryd : 11-12-2017 at 11:56 AM.
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