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Go Back   Casebook Forums > Ripper Discussions > Motive, Method and Madness

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  #1121  
Old 10-24-2017, 01:14 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
Yes perhaps
You know what applies if you want to debate with me, Rocky.
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  #1122  
Old 10-24-2017, 01:23 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
You lost me there. I never use chemises.
Another dream dies...
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"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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  #1123  
Old 10-24-2017, 01:32 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Flynn View Post
Another dream dies...
Sorry about that.

But honestly, were you really thinking that I for some reason simply grabbed the idea that the torso killer may have had a thing for chemises out of thin air...?

If so, that´s a bit worrying.
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  #1124  
Old 10-24-2017, 01:37 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Sorry about that.

But honestly, were you really thinking that I for some reason simply grabbed the idea that the torso killer may have had a thing for chemises out of thin air...?

If so, that´s a bit worrying.
I thought chemises were commonly worn by prostitutes
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  #1125  
Old 10-24-2017, 02:00 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
You know what applies if you want to debate with me, Rocky.
Yes indeed, you will be twisting the truth to fit what you like.
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  #1126  
Old 10-24-2017, 02:26 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
I thought chemises were commonly worn by prostitutes
They were undergarments commonly worn by all kinds of women.
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  #1127  
Old 10-24-2017, 02:53 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
But honestly, were you really thinking that I for some reason simply grabbed the idea that the torso killer may have had a thing for chemises out of thin air...?
It was clear that this was your favoured explanation in your very first post on the subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
Let´s take a look at something I always found a bit odd. When the Pinchin Street torso was found, a chemise was also found, bloodied and dirty. The chemise had been cut all the way up front and also from the neck lining down to the sleeve openings on both sides.

To me, this tells a very clear story: The victim was on her back as the chemise was cut, and the cutting made allowed the killer to expose the body completely.

However, the question I would like for you to comment on is why the victim was dressed in a chemise at this stage?

As far as I can tell, there are three working suggestions to answer the question:

1. The victim was staying with the killer, and had dressed in a chemise to go to bed.

2. The victim was abducted in the chemise from her own lodgings.

3. The killer supplied the chemise.

I don´t like the first suggestion, on account of how I regard the killer as a killer of strangers. This of course does not have to be true, but the fact that he dumped Jackson in her own, marked, clothes speaks to me of an indifference probably based on how he had no ties to the victim. For example.

I don´t like the second suggestion, on account of how it would be hard to abduct a woman alive without being noticed, plus such a thing would probably have been commented on in the press.

I do like the third explanation a lot because it goes hand in hand with my thinking about a ritualistic behaviour tied to the murders.
Is it possible that your belief that there was a ritual dimension to the murders preceded - and shaped - your suggesting Option 3 above, i.e. that the killer was the one who supplied the chemise? I must confess that I don't think I'd have thought of that option, anymore than I'd have thought up the idea that JTR brought a chemise for Kelly to wear.

The most obvious explanation, as I think Abby pointed out, was that the victim was already wearing the chemise before she met her killer, but you didn't consider listing that among your three options. Perhaps that was because it would an easy mistake to assume that a chemise was invariably an item of nightwear but, as we've seen, that wasn't the case.
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  #1128  
Old 10-24-2017, 04:34 PM
RockySullivan RockySullivan is offline
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On 10th Sept. '89 the naked body, with arms, of a woman was found wrapped in some sacking under a Railway arch in Pinchin St

I'm sure this has been discussed frequently but why does Sir Melville Macnaghten say it was wrapped in sacking?
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  #1129  
Old 10-24-2017, 05:20 PM
Joshua Rogan Joshua Rogan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RockySullivan View Post
On 10th Sept. '89 the naked body, with arms, of a woman was found wrapped in some sacking under a Railway arch in Pinchin St

I'm sure this has been discussed frequently but why does Sir Melville Macnaghten say it was wrapped in sacking?
Well, it was wrapped in the remains of the chemise, but Inspector Pinhorn was reported to have made this cryptic remark at inquest;

"The position of the trunk was such as to indicate it had been carried in a sack, or closely bound up together. The arms were close to the body, and the hands beneath the abdomen."
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  #1130  
Old 10-24-2017, 10:23 PM
Fisherman Fisherman is offline
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Sam Flynn: It was clear that this was your favoured explanation in your very first post on the subject.

But what you suggested was this:

"...you latched onto the word "chemise" believing that it was definitely an item of nightwear, which then led you to read some sort of kinky dimension into the murder ...

And that was anything but clear in my post. It was a rather onedimensional and groundless suggestion, and that was what I found a bit worrying. Why on earth would I suggest something like that when a chemise was just about the most basic garment around in 1888 - unless I had something to go on?

Is it possible that your belief that there was a ritual dimension to the murders preceded - and shaped - your suggesting Option 3 above, i.e. that the killer was the one who supplied the chemise? I must confess that I don't think I'd have thought of that option, anymore than I'd have thought up the idea that JTR brought a chemise for Kelly to wear.

The chemise seemingly fits into the ritualistic part I am suggesting, yes. It could have been provided by the killer for that very reason - and it could have been the victims own, with no underlying ritualistic cause at all.

The most obvious explanation, as I think Abby pointed out, was that the victim was already wearing the chemise before she met her killer, but you didn't consider listing that among your three options. Perhaps that was because it would an easy mistake to assume that a chemise was invariably an item of nightwear but, as we've seen, that wasn't the case.

That depends on the type of chemise, Gareth. Not all chemises were worn at day- and nighttime, and we do not know which type this was. That being said, you are of course correct in saying that IF the chemise was the type that could be worn at daytime, then she could have had it on her person as she met the killer.
If it was NOT, then Abbys suggestion is not the most obvious explanation at all, I´m afraid.
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