Why were the soldiers never identified?

[Hellrider]

you have a talent to always create interesting new questions Howard

Consequently, the next question would be: how on earth did she get into the buildings and onto that landing? You already offered a possibility: a place to sleep. The other one you mention is hiding from a bunch of criminals. That possibility, however, might implicate that she in fact became a victim of a bunch of criminals and that is gross...imagine 3-5 people stabbing a woman to death in a building and nobody reacts.
If we accept that notion however, we have to erase the unidentified soldier from the equation and concede he was there simply by accident. Credible?

[Howard Brown]

Hellrider:

Very nice of you to say what you did. Much appreciated.

As to the comment or idea you brought up:

imagine 3-5 people stabbing a woman to death in a building and nobody reacts.

I think that one of the major selling points that those who feel that a Guardsman was present in the landing or even two,if that was ever theorized, is the statement Killeen made about the deeper stab wound, the possible coup de grace to Martha. I say possible since we can't be sure that the wound that punctured Tabram's heart WAS the first or the last one. Killeen does say that this wound was sufficient to cause death...but, its also possible that Tabram was dead from this "heart shot" and all the subsequent wounds were made, gulp, after she was already dead or in the process of dying from this deeper wound....and sufficient doesn't mean definitely.

Its a good selling point because of what P.C.Barrett mentions the following morning of seeing his guardsman on Goulston Street. I think its possible that people have put two and two together...Barrett's sighting AND the Poll deposition...and taking into account that a Guardsman would or could have had a dagger like weapon on him such as a regiment-issue bayonet, unlike the rank and file East Ender...that this is in large part a basis for the "Guardsman as most likely suspect" in this particular murder.

Moving along to your point...I would be surprised if a gang of 3-5 would have ventured up on the landing...perhaps one or two stayed downstairs...if in fact a scenario such as this did occur. But,hey...anything's possible right?

Back to you,Hellrider.

[Hellrider]

thanks Howard

As we can't come up with a completely correct and final solution to the case Tabram, we have to infer how it could have happened from the basic facts that we have.

Thesis 1):
The way that this woman died might point to several killers (at least two) in my opinion. Otherwise, she would have made considerable noise, and to allow such noise would be very risky for such a killer.

Antithesis 1):
If the first strike would have been deadly (stab through the heart), then Tabram would not have made noise even if there were only one killer.

Thesis 2):
Two soldiers who hung around with them are likely suspects. They went off with the girls and one soldier was seen in close proximity to the scene of the crime in a fitting time frame (half an hour before the estimated death)

Antithesis 2):
The witness "Pearly Poll" may have been lying about the entire soldier thing. Besides, to spend such a long time with clients is not normal for prostitutes and finally, to allow more than half an hour to inflict some wounds (okay, 39 of them, but nevertheless..) is definitely borderline.

[Mike Covell]

Recent discoveries show that the landing of George Yard were open, I always thought they were closed and poorly lit, but this is not the case.

This to me suggests she was not going there to sleep, but perhaps had a client to "service".

The photos that have been unearthed of George Yard can be found on the "East End Photos" thread under "General Discussion".

[Howard Brown]

Hellrider;

Good point about the length of time a prostitute ( street) would actually be with someone. Its not like the soldiers were dying for stimulating conversation, was it?

My dear Mr.Covell...

Since you apparently aren't in the habit of procuring prostitutes and aren't one yourself, the alley, my good man....the alley ways are the overwhelming choice and preference for a kneetrembler in an ambulatory age such as the LVP.

What would carry a stiffer jail term for a pross....getting arrested in an alley, where that sort of behavior would get a " Here you lot, lets move on ,now"...accompanied by a smack of the truncheon on the ground by a policeman...or getting pinched on private property with your privates in full bloom and view?

Back to you,sor....

[Mike Covell]

Hi How, Whats to say the client didnt suggest,

"Ere love, this look awright" and takes her up the stairs (oh matron)

Secondly, what better way to escape the local Bobby than taking it off the usual highways and byeways?

Over to you Sir Howard of Philly

[Howard Brown]

Mr. Sapient Conclusion,sor:

Yes, its possible that Tabram suggested...or even her client suggested that they go up the stairs to get down with a little close encountering.

Clients don't ordinarily take risks when they engage in this behavior, preferring anonymity. Hiking up the stairs increases that risk,does it not?

[Celesta]

Hi How, Hellrider, & Mike,

We know Emma was attacked by 3 men. The only one she comments on is the 19 year old. If the 3 men were guardsmen, in uniform, wouldn't she be more likely to say it was "three guardsmen?" How common was it for a guardsman to wear his uniform when on leave or off-duty? I honestly don't know. It's possible that they may have been required to wear them at all times. There's nothing to tie her death to a guardsman.

I can easily see Martha hiding from a gang, as she would surely have heard about Emma and possibly Margaret Hames. She was a hellcat herself and probably knew who the local hellraisers were. If she ticked some of them off that night, she might have had to get out of sight. She could have taken refuge in the building. After that it gets blurry. Did some gang members follow and corner her there? Did the guardsman Barrett saw, come along after the fact and deliver a blow himself, hence a different wound from the rest? Or was the opposite the case. The guardsman, or whoever wielded the different weapon, attacked her first, then someone else came along and delivered all those overkill stab wounds. Or was it just one guy, possibly JtR, who saw her go into the building and followed her.

Billions and billions of possibilities. And a lot of coming and going by a lot of folks.

[Mike Covell]

How, I watched a documentary the other night with a young kid who was found drunk on a building site, his wallet was missing.

It transpired he had lured a prostitute to the building site and broke the locks, climbing over machinery to get to a dry corner out of the way.
He passed out, and wether or not she intended to rob him was not discussed but she made off with his wallet!

He was cautioned for breaking and entering and let off, no fine was given as he had no wallet.

It did show the lenghts some people will go to for sex.

Celesta makes an intresting point, perhaps it wasn't the Police but the local gangs Tabram was trying to escape, what they don't know don't hurt, and it's a little extra for her!!

[Hellrider]

hey all together,

Celesta's pretty much summed up what I thought while eating some minutes ago. I would have thought guardsmen would NOT wear uniform during leave, alone for the simple fact they might cause mischief by using their authority and - more important even - their weapons. So why the hell is the guy on leave carrying his bayonett with him, if he's the one who killed Tabram?


But, if the gang followed and cornered her, would she not have raised all hell and cried out at the top of her voice? I mean, in the worst case, she would have been arrested for intruding upon private property, which is a trifle compared to dying at the hands of these villains.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Howard,

Do you happen to have the text of Inspector Reid's communique to Scotland Yard 49 days after the Tabram incident? I don't think I've ever seen it.

Many thanks,

Simon

[mariag]

Certainly she would have cried out if she had been able to.

Question: the the guards have any clothes other than their uniforms? Did they have "civvies" the way soldiers do now?

Also, Alfred Crow, one of the tenants saw the body at about 3:30 am but thought it was someone sleeping and took no notice, so it must have been common for the homeless to use the stairways .

Whatever Jack did to quickly silence his victims was, in my opinion, what he used on Tabram.

[Mike Covell]

Hi Howard,

Do you happen to have the text of Inspector Reid's communique to Scotland Yard 49 days after the Tabram incident? I don't think I've ever seen it.

Many thanks,

Simon

Hi Simon, the text can be found in the "Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook", by Stewert P Evans and Keith Skinner, in Chapter 2 of the book.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Regarding the Pearly Poll saga:

It is more than just likely that the entire scenario of Tabram and the three others allegedly in her company never occurred. The policeman in charge of the investigation apparently felt the original comments were based on nothing tangible.

Speculating as to what Poll's motive(s) were are all fine and well, but if it never occurred, then we'd be speculating for naught.

Inspector Edmund Reid issued a communique to Scotland Yard 49 days after the alleged August 7th incident and at that time...seven weeks later...no one remembered those 2 prostitutes and two soldiers at all in the inquiries made by Reid and his subordinates.

If Poll had been with a man in an alley for 2 minutes, its likely that she wouldn't remember his face. If Poll had been in a bed for 10 minutes with a man, the chances are a little more likely that she would remember his face, but if not, thats understandable.

In this scenario...this alleged scenario of Poll & Tabram and the Guardsmen...Poll claims they were together for 1 hour and 45 minutes together ( forgetting the fact that no one in any of the taprooms remembered them or at least acknowledged remembering them to Reid and Co.) which is an extraordinary amount of time for a street prostitute to be with a man and NOT remember his face when she went to two identity parades and flunked miserably in the latter by identifying a man with an alibi.

What possibly occurred here with Poll is that she got wind of P.C. Barrett's story in the newspaper the day after the murder and set out for her 15 minutes of fame by claiming that this alleged incident of the 4 happy campers gone bad occurred .

15 minutes of fame in Spitalfields/Whitechapel gets one a few drinks on the house in 1888 and in 2008.

I for one think that this alleged scenario never occurred and it at times is used, perhaps unconsciously and unintentionally, to eliminate Tabram from being considered a bona fide Ripper victim.

Fact remains, that it is (or should be) PC Barrett's evidence that is used as an argument for excluding Tabram. Regardless if Pearly Poll's story is true or not, we still have PC Barrett's to deal with and he was a police constable, i.e. a much more reliable witness than Pearly Poll.
Barrett came across a soldier around the corner to the murder site at the right time of the murder, and this is what should be considered in the Tabram context, not Pearly Poll.

I am of the strong opinion that Tabram most certainly wasn't a Ripper victim, but I would never use Pearly Poll's dodgy statements in order to support that.
Even if Pearly Poll did speak the truth, there is no reason - if several soldiers were out on leave that night (it was Bank Holiday) - to automatically these tow soldiers with the one that PC Barrett encountered (who also said 'his friend had gone away with a girl'). It could very well be different soldiers, for all we know, especially considering the time frame that's being delivered between them hanging out with this soldiers and the time of the murder. Therefore I think Pearly Poll's statements have very little value either way. But I certainly don't find any reason to dismiss Barrett's evidence.

All the best

[Celesta]

No one is discounting PC Barrett's testimony. Absolutely, he saw a soldier, but he couldn't identify him either. No doubt, he saw 100's of soldiers in a week's time. The one he saw that night would've been memorable because of the murder, and because he told Barrett that his friend went off with a girl. PC Barrett didn't see the friend. There is nothing to prove there were two soldiers, except Poll's statement. Maybe she saw the account of the murder and made up a second soldier to go along with Barrett's soldier. Or maybe she and Martha had been together, just as she stated and they met two soldiers. Is there even testimony that these two women were together earlier in the evening? That might help corroborate Poll's story up to a point.

Unless you accept Poll's story then we are left with nothing, except for Barrett's soldier, whom Barrett was never able to identify. The result is the same.