overkill

[Sam Flynn]

I agree we can't actually know, but I'd say it's a reasonable assumption that anger had something to do with what he was doing to those women.

I think the difficulty lies in what one assumes about what was at the forefront of his mind at the time, Frank. I can understand sublimated anger playing a part in some murders, but that's not quite the same as the sort of conscious anger, such as that which might have been in the mind of Tabram's killer as he punch-punch-punched the blade into her body.

[FrankO]

If you mean here that Tabram's killer wasn't able to control his anger, due to whatever Tabram said or did, whereas with the evisceration murders the killer was controlling it to a reasonable extent, then I'd agree, Gareth. But I'm quite confident that anger did play a part in those murders as well.

[FrankO]

If that ain't focused on the abdomen, I don't know what is.

Completely agree with you there!

[Sam Flynn]

If you mean here that Tabram's killer wasn't able to control his anger, due to whatever Tabram said or did, whereas with the evisceration murders the killer was controlling it to a reasonable extent, then I'd agree, Gareth.

Snap!

But I'm quite confident that anger did play a part in those murders as well.

Agreed, but I see it operating at a wholly different level.

PS: I'm listening to a rather lovely Mahler performance by the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra right now. It's good to be corresponding with a Dutchman at the same time

[Pinkerton]

It's possible she was silenced by a blow to the head just before she reached the landing. Let's posit the possibility that she was leading her punter up the stairs to that nice dark area. He clubs her across the head just as she gets there, and grabs her to make sure she doesn't fall with a thump. (He must have been strong to be able to do this!) He lays her out and commences to stab. She is unconscious at first and then dead. And let's not forget the 'effusion of blood' in the cranial area.

No noise whatsoever from this scenario. And, like other Ripper kills, the victim is silenced immediately and dead very very quickly thereafter. It's after they are gone that he really gets down to work.

Chava, I have been tempted to also propose the "blow on the head" theory to explain the fact that no one seemed to hear anything during the murders (with the possible exception of MJK). The only problem with the theory is that there is no evidence to support this. There were no large contusions found on the skull. Not to mention the fact that if you hit someone on the head hard enough to knock them unconscious they are most likely going to BLEED like crazy from the wound. And I don't believe ANY of the victims were ever found to be bleeding from the head.

Therefore there seems to only be two explanations for the fact that no one heard anything--either they are LYING (don't want to get involved, are too scarred, etc.) or the perpetrator used another method to silence the victims. We can rule out ether or chloroform (there was never any trace of this found). It seems that the only alternatives are drugging, or strangulation/choking. The former seems unlikely (would take time to kick in and no traces of drugs were found on the victims), and the latter seems to be the only realistic possibility at this point. That is unless you believe the physicians of the day which seemed to believe that you could cut someone's throat so quickly and suddenly as to prevent them from crying out. I find this scenario unlikely, unless Jack was some kind of a "ninja" that is...

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

Just curious, but are you sure that's what some think? Given the fact that MJK’s complete abdomen seems to have been emptied of organs, that’s a very odd view indeed.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I think its in the verbiage then, because I would describe what happens to Mary as emptying her, not opening her. He doesnt even take an abdominal organ yet her empties that cavity....he peels flesh from bone,....he does some weird things in there but I dont think that saying Marys killer opened her body in the way that was seen done in the case of Polly and Annie is correct.

All the best Frank

[perrymason]

And to Sam and Frank.....Id be inclined to say that curiosity is one of the predominant features of the Kelly murder,... I see the only evidence that any anger was present in her face wounds. I dont see anger in and of itself in any legitimate Canonical Death, and I see only anger in Marthas.

You may be right in whether anger played a part in Kates wounds, but I am inclined to see those wounds differently than you...I think she was being "marked". Mary was being erased.

Best regards

[FrankO]

...Id be inclined to say that curiosity is one of the predominant features of the Kelly murder,...

It's funny that you mention this Michael, because the last 5 years or so I've been thinking that, besides anger, curiosity for the female body may have driven the Ripper to do what he did to his victims.

All the best, Mike,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

I would describe what happens to Mary as emptying her, not opening her. He doesnt even take an abdominal organ yet her empties that cavity....he peels flesh from bone,....he does some weird things in there

All entirely explicable by the indoor location and the extra time he had, Mike.

but I dont think that saying Marys killer opened her body in the way that was seen done in the case of Polly and Annie is correct.

He emphatically did open Mary's body in the same way as Annie Chapman - in both cases, three flaps of flesh were cut from the abdomen.

Anyhow... back to Tabram.

[perrymason]

It's funny that you mention this Michael, because the last 5 years or so I've been thinking that, besides anger, curiosity for the female body may have driven the Ripper to do what he did to his victims.

All the best, Mike,
Frank

Hi again Frank.

I dont share the opinion that there was anger present in other than the facial wounds, but its nice to agree on curiosity evident by the acts in room 13.

Where I depart from your thinking is that curiosity is present in the case of Annie Chapman or Polly Nichols. Seems to me, and the respective coroners said it first, that in those two murders there is anatomical knowledge and knife skill exhibited, and that the organ the killer desired may have prompted the slayings in the first place.

They thought he knew where what he wanted was, and how to get it....based on what he did. Theres nothing "curious" about that.... unless its that kind of skill being exhibited by a street person without any training or practice.

All the best Frank.

[Lozle]

I too agree that Martha Tabram's murder was in fact driven by emotion.

Stabbing someone is a much more personal act than what is demonstrated in the apparent interrelated murders.

The 5canonical victims' throats were cut... to me thats not so much interest in them, its more about silencing them so he can have his bit of dysfunctional fun, deliever their message, and not get found out. Whereas stabbing someone seems much more personal and motions to someone in a rage - not worrying about being caught at that moment. Indeed the stabbings seem frenzied and manic, but nothing - with the exception of Mary Kelly - appears in the other canonical victims... And I'm inclined to believe the mutilation of Mary Kelly was motivated by emotion... which goes back to the same story.

Though, I'm conflicted as to whether Martha Tabram was amongst the Ripper killings. In some ways it makes sense, but the protocol demonstrates drastic differences which can't particularly be interlinked with the 5canonical victims. Maybe Martha Tabram was his beginning, jumping in unprepared... then began his rampage...

Many thanks.

[perrymason]

I too agree that Martha Tabram's murder was in fact driven by emotion.

Stabbing someone is a much more personal act than what is demonstrated in the apparent interrelated murders.

The 5 canonical victims' throats were cut... to me thats not so much interest in them, its more about silencing them so he can have his bit of dysfunctional fun, deliever their message, and not get found out. Whereas stabbing someone seems much more personal and motions to someone in a rage - not worrying about being caught at that moment. Indeed the stabbings seem frenzied and manic, but nothing - with the exception of Mary Kelly - appears in the other canonical victims... And I'm inclined to believe the mutilation of Mary Kelly was motivated by emotion... which goes back to the same story.

Though, I'm conflicted as to whether Martha Tabram was amongst the Ripper killings. In some ways it makes sense, but the protocol demonstrates drastic differences which can't particularly be interlinked with the 5canonical victims. Maybe Martha Tabram was his beginning, jumping in unprepared... then began his rampage...

Many thanks.

Hi Lozle,

I think the part I put in bold is a key here, and I agree fully.

The one thing that does bode well for including Martha Tabram, as far as this premise goes, is that it would be hard to argue that the Canonical Throat cuts werent just as much "overkill" as 39 stabs were, they were far more brutal than he needed to slit an artery....the differences in my opinion are primarily the basic use of the knife, and that there were 2 weapons used.

All the best L.

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"Id be inclined to say that curiosity is one of the predominant features of the Kelly murder"

I wouldn´t know about that, Michael. But if you are correct, then an interesting parallel is that of Robert Ackerman, who would also fit in quite well with some of the thinking offered by our own Cap´n Jack.
Ackermans exploits can be traced via:

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/weird/robert_ackermann/1.html

The best, Michael!
Fisherman

[Lozle]

Hello,
Hi Mike (hope you don't mind me calling you Mike?), there being more then one persons and more than one weapon used in the killing of Martha Tabram crossed my mind. But then I thought if there was most than one person, a potential victim is much more inclined to fight back - unless unconscious - and if it were more than one person, the potential victim believes these people put together can do an awful lot more damage than one person. One person could easily sneak up on a woman who may have been a bit "merry", 2people may be a little more difficult. but then, if someone is in an intoxicated state, they wouldn't be expecting someone to jump them and murder them... they'd be concerned about bugger all and walking in a straight line to get home. So, i'm a bit conflicted there. Is there any evidence to suggest it was in fact the same weapon jabbed in to Martha Tabram with not so much force as what that deep stab? But then, if someone is in a rage or in a bit of a state themselves they're not worried about holding back... hmmm, not made much progress there lol, but i'm interested in anyones thoughts.
Many thanks.

[halomanuk]

The 39 times she was stabbed generally was with a pen-knife or small blade,although a 'bayonet type' weapon was used also.

But she was strangled first,at least to unconciousness, hence there was no noise for the neighbours in the building to hear.

So the frenzy wasn't a typical JtR killing (until MJK) but the strangulation prior to mutilation was - a very hard one to tell,if she was a JtR victim or not.