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  #21  
Old 11-07-2008, 05:19 PM
Canucco dei Mergi Canucco dei Mergi is offline
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Hello all,



Yet this night, even after rain had subsided and it was clear that at least 28 men were on site, we are told, singing upstairs.......not one person is in the yard after Lave, then Eagle, pass through it around 12:40am.

No-one was smoking, no-one needed to use the yard privy, no-one needed some night air, no-one needed to stretch their legs, no-one needed to leave between 12:40am and 1am to go home to the wife, cottagers were awake but oblivious to the yards activities, no-one needed to leave and get ready to go to work....like a Butcher for example, who started their work in the wee hours.....
.
Sincerly, I do not see anything susicious here...but...hey...just an opinion.

That the awoken cottagers didn't hear anything aside from the singing means that there was no noise made in the yard or at least the noise was not loud enough to be heard by them.
But this is not suspicious per se.
It is one of the little mysteries that we should explain with the reconstruction of the crime (valid point for all the 4 first canonical murders).
That using the serial killer scenario, the total lack of noise/screams is difficult to support I essentially agree.

Last edited by Canucco dei Mergi : 11-07-2008 at 05:46 PM.
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  #22  
Old 11-07-2008, 05:22 PM
Canucco dei Mergi Canucco dei Mergi is offline
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Hello all,
If.....Schwartz was leaving the club, and in the yard when a man accosts Liz near the wall by the gates, and hurries on out, maybe along with a Pipe smoking man also there, then his statement would be an accusatory one towards someone attending that meeting. That would have closed this club down.
Schwarz was an orthodox. He could never have been a member of the club.
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  #23  
Old 11-07-2008, 05:39 PM
Canucco dei Mergi Canucco dei Mergi is offline
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-Why didnt Liz pay for her bed before leaving? She had the money from cleaning that day.
-Why would she say she did not know when she might return, after she had already given some velvet to a lodger to hold for her, which would lead one to surmise she had plans at least for that night. Did she mean she might not return to sleep there again, or just that night?
-Why is she wearing an ankle length skirt and a flower on her breast to solicit.....and why would cashous be something she would use when dealing with street people that smell horrible likely.
-Why didnt Eagle and Lave see each other, when their statements have them both in the yard at 12:40am?
-Why did Eagle, who is self described as "squeamish" about blood, tumble "pell-mell" down the stairs to see the murdered woman discovered by Diemshutz.
-Why didnt Police use Schwartz's statement at the Inquest?
-Why do Eagle, Diemshutz and Kozebrodski run out yelling "another" woman has been murdered?
-Why is Liz Stride, if a Ripper victim, unmutilated post mortem?
-Is there anything with respect to the known evidence regarding her murder that precludes someone else with a knife killing her, other than Jack?
1. Who knows ? So what ?
2. Maybe. Nice thought. So what ?

3. That she was soliciting that night is only another of those 'magic theory' advanced by the serial killer paladins. Nothing in it. Circumstances tend to show she was not at it.
But for the said paladins aknowledging she was not soliciting would mean cutting the grass under their own feet.
Some of them (the serial killer integrists) have chosen to go further: putting the woman Stride with the woman Smith: in the not-pertinence wastepaper basket.
It says a lot.

3bis. Cachous were found in her hand. Nobody can prove she was having them already while alive. The murderer(s) might be the one(s) who put them there.

4. Probably because they were off by some minutes in their testimony. I see nothing suspicious there.

5. But he didn't stay long anyway when he saw the body, going away from the yard looking for a PC. Again, nothing suspicious (IMO)

6. Interesting point. Likely because his testimony was considered of the utmost importance and they did want to keep it secret from the press as police do it often today. Just not to give out their clues to the miscreants.
Little problem: they seem to have kept it secret even to Dr Phillips (fear of leaks ?) who couldn't explain bluish marks on the victim chests other than by 'pushing pressure'.

7. It is my contention that you look too suspiciously to those guys of the club.

8. Not really a safe place to lose time at mutilating.

9. The answer deserves a chapter of a book.
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  #24  
Old 11-07-2008, 05:56 PM
Chris Chris is offline
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Originally Posted by Canucco dei Mergi View Post
Schwarz was an orthodox. He could never have been a member of the club.
Do we know that for sure?
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  #25  
Old 11-07-2008, 06:23 PM
Sam Flynn Sam Flynn is online now
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Originally Posted by perrymason View Post
Goldstein was a club member, and had in his Gladstone like bag, empty cigarette cartons. He shows up at around 12:55am, and as it so happens, some cottagers opposite the club wall were still awake at that time, and some were cigarette makers.
There were hundreds of cigarette- and cigar-makers in that part of the world, Mike - it was a very popular "work-from-home" option at that time, as was making the boxes to hold them. I don't think we can read too much into the Leon Goldstein story on that score.
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  #26  
Old 11-07-2008, 07:06 PM
Canucco dei Mergi Canucco dei Mergi is offline
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Do we know that for sure?
You mean if we know for sure that the guy seemingly dressed 'in the theatrical line' who Abberlines define as having strong jewish features and who leaves his wife alone not to get mixed up with the moving the day of the Shabbat while getting out of the way because the day of the Shabbat you can't even hint at working is an orthodox ?

No, I guess from those elements we can't know for sure.

But there are others to be looked for.
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  #27  
Old 11-07-2008, 07:13 PM
Simon Wood Simon Wood is offline
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Hi Canucco dei Mergi,

You have a mordant eye, and a wit to match.

Regards,

Simon
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  #28  
Old 11-07-2008, 09:01 PM
Chris Chris is offline
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Originally Posted by Canucco dei Mergi View Post
You mean if we know for sure that the guy seemingly dressed 'in the theatrical line' who Abberlines define as having strong jewish features and who leaves his wife alone not to get mixed up with the moving the day of the Shabbat while getting out of the way because the day of the Shabbat you can't even hint at working is an orthodox ?
Well, Schwartz's "strong Jewish appearance" would certainly be an indication that he was Jewish, but I don't think anyone has ever doubted that. And I'm not convinced a "theatrical" appearance would be an infallible indication that a Jew was orthodox, either.

But that's an interesting interpretation of the Star's statement "It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane".

If I understand correctly, the theory would be that Schwartz's wife had arranged to move lodgings on the Sabbath, when such a move would be strictly forbidden to orthodox Jews, and that he wished to dissociate himself from the proceeding, and therefore went out and left her to it.

That could certainly explain an otherwise puzzling feature of the Star's account. Though I suppose the Sabbath-day move could alternatively be considered evidence against the family's orthodoxy - or at least against Mrs S's.
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  #29  
Old 11-07-2008, 10:06 PM
Canucco dei Mergi Canucco dei Mergi is offline
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That could certainly explain an otherwise puzzling feature of the Star's account. Though I suppose the Sabbath-day move could alternatively be considered evidence against the family's orthodoxy - or at least against Mrs S's.
Opening a locked door is always a hard thing to do unless you got the key.
'Puzzling' many times is just an underestimation of the level of misunderstanding.

Are they offered to choose, a jewish orthodox family would certainly avoid moving on the day of Shabbat.
What the sense of doing it that day if...you can't ?

But they can't choose the moment the last day of the month fall.

As for renting flats at the time, contracts would have been very similar to the nowadays ones.
Rent are paid from the first to the last of the days, not beyond.

Last edited by Canucco dei Mergi : 11-07-2008 at 10:15 PM.
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  #30  
Old 11-07-2008, 10:09 PM
Canucco dei Mergi Canucco dei Mergi is offline
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Hi Canucco dei Mergi,

You have a mordant eye, and a wit to match.
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